Stephen Whiteside on Writing Narrative Non-fiction Australian History ‘Snow, Fire and Gold’

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello authors. [00:00:01] Speaker B: I'm Joanne Morrell, children's and young adult fiction writer and author of short nonfiction for authors. Thanks for joining me for the Hybrid Author Podcast, sharing interviews from industry professionals to help you forge a career as a hybrid author both independently and traditionally publishing your books. You can get the show notes for. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Each episode and sign up for your. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Free Author pass over at the Hybrid Author website to discover your writing process, get tips on how to publish productively, and get comfortable promoting your books at www. Let's crack on with the episode. Hello authors. I hope you're all keeping well in whatever part of the world you reside and listen to the podcast in. Today's interview is with Stephen Whiteside on Snow, Fire and Gold, writing Australian Historical Narrative, non Fiction and WeChat. The inspiration to explore particular time periods and story in Stephen's world Australian history, Snow, Fire and Gold what research methods he undertook to bring authenticity to his novella while keeping the narrative engaging. Challenges in balancing historical fact with storytelling Stephen's advice to writers looking to craft compelling historical narratives while staying true to the past and much more. [00:01:28] Speaker A: So in. [00:01:28] Speaker B: My author adventure this week I have been a bit of a hermit, it feels. I've been watching a lot of television and film over the weekend. It's been fairly quiet in between all the various children's things and I just wanted to touch on it because it's not just one genre that I stick to. I watched a bunch of drama stuff I'm currently watching. I think it's called the Good American Family on Disney and it's a one episode drop per week. It's got the lead from Grey's Anatomy in and it's based off a true story about this family adopting what they believe is a 7 year old girl and then kind of coming to the conclusion that she's a lot older than seven and she has severe disabilities and they get done over by this agency, this adoption agency and I mean my sister had told me about the story previously and it's just nothing like I've ever heard before. I just feel like I've been introduced to a whole lot of really cool story narratives over the weekend. That's why I'm talking about it. I also watched, I think it's called I should probably look up the names of things before I actually talk about them, shouldn't I? I think it's called Speak no Evil or See no Evil, Speak no Evil or something with James McAvoy and that's a movie on Netflix at the moment and I remember seeing this coming out at the cinema. I think it was probably last Halloween. I love James McAvoy. He's a fellow Scot and he does play quite dark roles really well. He's quite versatile, actually. He's played comedy, kind of romantic things too. And this one was a very good. Slow build, but compelling narrative that leads up to the final chase and the final showdown. And so it's just really, really cool to watch the way different things are made and the way different storylines are told. I've also been watching reality TV series. Absolutely love it. It's called Love on the Spectrum and it's about individuals with autism and various other disabilities who are looking for love. It's like a dating show and they're just gorgeous and I love watching it. Everybody in it is just a unique character unto themselves. And I think that's third season. It's nice to see some of the orig are still looking for love, actually finding love, and then some of them who had found love still together and looking to be getting married. The way they're sort of evolving with that series is they're bringing the families more into it. They're telling it from the other party's perspectives. There was one couple who broke up in this season. I'm not going to say names or spoiler alert, but they told it from the boys perspective this time, whereas in the beginning it's always been from the girls. So, yeah, it's just really cool to see how all these different things are done. I watched, I guess you could call it. I'm not sure if it would come under True Crime. It was called something like American. It's not American Murder, but American. It's all this American stuff. American something again on Disney. The Fall of Ruby, Frankie and it was about a family who were vloggers in the US from when the children were fairly young. She had six kids in the end and coming across as the ideal mother, the ideal family and YouTubers and sharing every single aspect of their lives. But the woman actually ended up going to jail for 30 years for child abuse. So you can imagine the story of starting and putting yourself out there as this type of person and then ending up to be absolutely so far from the type of person. It was really riveting. 4 episodes. Highly recommend that. I think I watched the Lost Girls of something. Gosh, I'm doing really well. I'm on Netflix again. I feel like I consumed the entire catalogue of Netflix over the weekend. It was just one of those downtime weekends where it was quite stormy here in Perth Western Australia. So it was nice just to get some chill time. And this was obviously about some murders that had taken place on Long Island. I think it was. I don't know if it was the 1970s, various. I feel really bad, I'm not giving out the right information, but various mergers with young girls who are prostitutes and this web of corruption within the police force there and who it turned out to be. And that was really worth a watch. That was definitely true crime. And then I've started watching it's called A Teacher on Disney, which again, I would say was probably based on a true story, but I'm not sure. It's about a young boy and a young teacher striking up a romance and enjoying that so far. So I just wanted to say that it's worth watching different things to get a grasp on how different stories are told. I know I like everything. I think the only thing that I don't really watch that much is like action adventure and probably some sci fi stuff. Although I did watch the Electric State a couple weeks back. That was a new one as well, which was a big actors and her from Stranger Things, which I love her and it was different. That was really cool as well. So there has been a lot of different stuff that I've consumed recently, which I feel has given me a broad range of narrative and the way that a story can be told from different perspectives, from different cinematic angles. And I also wanted to touch upon it because I have now started writing again and I'm very, very happy about it. And I think in probably in last episode or the week episode before I mentioned making a decision to start the second. I think it was the second in the women's fiction series. But I have jumped ship again and I am writing a tele script for the Writer, the Hairdresser and the Nurse. So that is the contemporary women's fiction book that I put out last year that I have not done too much in the way of actively selling. But I do feel that when you do a project, it's probably worth doing everything you can for that project first. Whether that's get it written, get it finished, produce it in all the formats you want it to. You should produce it in every format so it fits everyone's preference of how they want to consume the content. So for me, adaptability with my work to screenplay, plays and scripts is something that I am very interested in. I love TV and I love film. I love that type of medium to tell story. And I probably watch TV and film more than I read books to be Honest. But I was a massive reader when I was a child. Reading a book, it's just a different experience, isn't it? And I think with this job, because I am a writer, I'm very much in my head a lot. And I feel like reading a book, you are in your head, you're in your own imagination. And I think there's something wonderful about that. But what I love about TV and film is the chance to tune out of my head and just watch what's going on in front of me. And that's the draw, I think, for television and film. That's what a lot of people do, just to zone out from themselves, relax, be shown something where they don't have to physically do too much in the way of thinking, I suppose. So I think that's probably why I like that I haven't ever written a TV series before. I think I've spoke about this. I've written one episode when I was in uni for a unit that I was doing. I have done a film script before. I'd probably say film scripts were more what I would be into over tv. But anyways, cracking a TV script, so we'll see how it goes. But I'm so excited to be doing it. This feels right to me. This is the project. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know where it's going to go. I haven't got any plans for it. I'm not going to get lost. Because this is what can happen as well, I think, is you can, before you've even started writing, you can start looking for competitions that are open for these types of things, agents looking for television scripts, all this. And you can get really, really caught up in that, in what you're going to do with it after. So much so that you might not even get started. Like, I had someone reach out to me years back and they were talking about writing a book and talking about publishing companies and this and that. That hadn't even started. And that was my advice to them, was write the thing, write your book, then look at that stuff. There's nothing wrong with researching or doing what you. But for a lot of people that can actually put the brakes on a project. So for me, I'm just gonna write this thing and then see where it goes from there. So I'll keep you posted on that. How hybrid am I this week? Well, fluid is part of the hybrid author Persona, which means describing a process that can adapt and change easily. So I have booked a meeting with a virtual assistant. Same company that I used last year for scoring me some speaking gigs, which exceeded the initial fee and has earned me a profit. So I was thinking the other day about long term goals for the Hybrid Author Podcast, and the ultimate long term goal for me is to just solely be hosting the podcast, writing the books like creating and not having to do all this other fluff like you know, all the other parts, the publishing, the social media, the promotion, all of that stuff I'd rather just leave to someone else, to be honest. I can do it all and there's some aspects where I actually enjoy it, but I find that I can see it takes a lot of my time and if I want this business to move forward and grow and whatnot, then I think it's time to maybe look at someone taking some of those jobs off my hands. So yes, my processes procedures are changing and I'm happy about it. I'm happy in the direction it's going have you ever thought about podcast advertising for your services of work? The Hybrid Author Podcast currently has advertising opportunities open in 2025 for advert placement throughout podcast episodes. These range from prime adverts very beginning of the episode before any content is heard to central adverts where you are listening now. Quarter of the episode in after Author Adventure segment like this sponsorship now or secure adverts which is after the guest interview and one you're gonna hear today. Opportunities to provide your own content or collaborate with me in creating it are available in specific tiers as well as advert link Prices range from $35 to $70 to $105. Reach out to me today. Joannebredauthor.com and remember, this is all tax deductible in your marketing budget for your business come end of year. Author Finances the upcoming interview with Stephen Whiteside shares some fabulous marketing tips. Also, let's crack on with the episode. [00:11:24] Speaker A: Stephen Whiteside has been walking and skiing through the Australian mountains for most of his life. He has also been writing for many years, mostly rhyming verse, but also short stories and articles about Australia's history and natural environment. Many of his poems have been published in magazines or anthologies, both in Australia and overseas, or won awards. In 2014, Walker Books published a collection of his poetry for children, the Billy that Died with Its Boots on and Other Australian verse. In 2015, the book won a Golden Gumley for Book of the Year at the Australian Bush Laureate Awards. During the Tamworth Country Music Festival. In 2016, he judged the secondary school section of the Dorothea Mackellar Dorothea McKellar Poetry Awards. Last year he self published his first novella, Snow Fire and the Story of Bill Spargo and Evelyn Piper's Life in the Australian Mountains. This year he is publishing another novella, Pearl Bradshaw, Princess of Hotham Whiteside works as a GP in Melbourne. Wow. Welcome to the Hybrid Author podcast, Stephen. [00:12:30] Speaker C: Thank you, Joanne. [00:12:31] Speaker A: What an amazing success you've had. Great bio, but can you tell us, you know, GP in Melbourne, how did you come to be a writer? [00:12:38] Speaker C: Oh, I think I've always been a writer. The more interesting question is how did I become to be a gp? I think. No, like I've always used to write as a kid I used to write little rhyming poems for little people, for people's birthdays and events in their lives and so on. But I, I, I think I burnt out about grade six, I think when the expectations were too high and I said, no, that's it, that's it, you know, I can't write one every day of the year. But no, it's always been in my bones, I guess, to feel that I had, that I had something to say as a writer and it's just been a matter of working out how to do it and where and all that sort of thing, you know, lots of, lots of false starts and dead ends but plugging away and gradually some sort of meaning starts to take shape. [00:13:25] Speaker A: Fantastic. As being a GP and a writer, had the two sort of converged or not really, they're pretty separate professions. [00:13:33] Speaker C: They're separate, yes. No, they are quite separate. I have written a couple of medical articles or sort of medico political articles, but they're very much the exception, I think. I wonder if I, because I'm sort of approaching retirement age and I wonder if I would be as productive a writer if I retired because I work full time, I start work at 9:00 and so I have to have a discipline of sort of writing for an hour before work because I know that my time is precious and I wonder if I would use that time sufficiently if I wasn't working. So the routine of being a GP possibly helps me with my writing, but not particularly the work itself. [00:14:13] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I like that. And I can relate with having children and going out to day jobs and things like that. You grab the snippets where you can because you know you have to. And I've had periods where I've had days and it still works out the same, I think it still seems to be a two hour sweet spot of writing rather than, you know, the whole Day luxury of writing. So. [00:14:34] Speaker C: Yeah, well, you. I've read a few writer bios and they say, you know, some of the finest writers wrote for four hours in the morning and then spent the afternoon reading or walking or something. I thought, gee, even writing for four hours, that's every day. That's really, really tough. [00:14:50] Speaker A: My wrist kind of cramped thinking of that. I love, I think, Roald Dahl's story. And he seemed he had to sort of, you know, walk down to the garden shed at a certain time, wrote for a couple of hours, walked back up, had his lunch and had a gin and tonic at lunch and they shared around like a box of chocolates. And then he'd go back down and write for another couple of hours. And I think he had a good routine. [00:15:11] Speaker C: And the other issue it comes up is a bit if you. Are you a morning person or an evening person. You know, I know Colin Teal, who was a great writer for children, was a. Worked full time as a schoolteacher, and I gather he used to write his novels in the evening after work. I thought, gee, that's a hard. But I reckon that's a hard way to do it, you know, because your brain would be half fried by then, you know. Whereas I feel it's much better to get up and write while I'm fresh in that first hour or two of the day and then. And then let the rest of the day take its course. But I don't know about writing after work. I think I really struggle. [00:15:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it would be quite hard. I think some people sort of are quite groggy some mornings or. And it takes them quite a while, maybe the whole day to bloom. Well, fantastic. Today's topic is on writing historical narrative nonfiction and, you know, Snowfire and Gold, your novella delves into Australian history. What inspired you to explore, you know, this particular time period and the story. [00:16:08] Speaker C: So it's been a life journey, this book, really. I've always loved skiing and bushwalking and the mountains generally. And I was on a family holiday. I would have been in year 11 or year 12, I suppose. We're up at Mount Hotham and. And we were all skiing up and down the runs and the lifts, as you did in those days. And it was a sunny day and one couple at lodge announced they weren't going to ski the lift that day. They were going to ski out to Spargo's hut and have a picnic. And they. We looked out the window on a distant ridge. We could see. I couldn't even see the hut, but I could see the ridge where the hut stood. And I thought, wow, what a kind of romantic idea that sounds like. And I filed it away in my back of my mind. Spargo's hut 10 years later by now I was a young doctor, I suppose, a couple of years out, and I'd gone on a bushwalking trip with a friend. And for one reason or another we'd got ahead of schedule and didn't want to go home a day early. And my friend said, well, what can we do to fill in a day? And I said, well, we could. I've heard of this place, Spargo's Hut, we could go out there. So we did. It's about a two hour walk. There was no track to it, it was mostly bush bashing. But I knew more or less where it was. And when I looked in the window, I knew it had been abandoned. But I looked in the window and I said to my friend, Rod, there's somebody still living there. Anyway, we had lunch on the grass outside, so I'm going to have another look before we go. And I had a closer look and I could see that it was a band, but it was still crammed full with all the items necessary for everyday living. And I thought, gee, this is really interesting because I'd seen a lot of huts before, mostly cattlemen's huts, and there's a cow skull on the wall and there's a whiskey bottle with a stub of a candle on the mantelpiece. And that's pretty much it. Few bunks, but this was just loaded with everything you could need. And it looked like even a woman had been there as well as a man. It was above the snow line, it was a one room hut and it looked like they'd really dug in for the long haul. And I thought, this is really quite extraordinary. So I decided to find out who these people were and why they'd chosen to live there. And I began traveling around country Victoria with a little micro cassette recorder, interviewing anybody I could find who'd known either one of the people who had lived in this hut. And so over the course of 18 months, I built up quite a bank of recorded interviews. And I always thought there must be a book in this, but I didn't really think I had the confidence to write it. This is back in 1987, 1988. But I thought, well, Lisa, I've got the information there. Some better writer than myself can come along and use this primary source material to write a book. And I made contact with a woman I knew was English. I Both did the people by now. But I knew the woman was English and I made contact with her descendants in England. And I have kept in touch with various generations of those over the last 30 years. And I also made contact with Bill's descendants, his nieces and nephews and granddaughters. Great nephew. And so the picture developed and then Trove came out, which was the National Library's website of giving access to old newspapers. And I started going through those and found a lot of information in there as well. And I think over the years too my confidence grew and I sort of reached the point where I thought, no, I'm going to have a go at this myself. And I actually wrote it as a straight history and it was 400 pages long, it was 140,000 words. Evelyn, the woman didn't enter the story until page 100. And I thought, my God, you know, this is not going to work. No, it's too dry, nobody's going to want to read it. It's going to cost the earth to print it. This is just not a viable proposition. And then a writing course came across my Facebook feed, a series of videos, half a dozen 30 minute videos that you paid 400 for by, together by a man in England. So I just thought I'm going to have a go at this. And I copped up the $400 and I listened to, watched these videos over and over, over several weeks and gradually started to get a sense of what he was trying to say. And he was talking about information gaps and subtext and I thought it was really interesting. And so I realized after watching these videos, I realized I could rewrite this stodgy, long, non fiction book as a much more interesting and shorter novel or it was a bit, even a bit short in the end it was probably more appropriately called a novella. And so the first book had taken me about two years to write and, and I called it the Last Prospector because he, Bill Spargo was, had triggered the last significant gold rush in the state of Victoria. And then I decided the second book, Snowfire and Gold, I wrote over about two months was much quicker to write. And it was about these two people, Bill and Evelyn. And I thought I'm going to start when they meet and I'm going to finish when they separate. And everything else has to be somehow woven into that narrative. So that's what I did call it, Snow Fire on Gold. And it's worked really well. And at the last minute, at the 11th hour, I picked up some photographs. So what had happened was Evelyn Piper who was the woman who lived in the hut? She had died in 1976. Her son. And she had a son who had married. He had also died, but his widow was still alive. And 20 years ago, she told me she had sent me a package of information that was Evelyn's personal papers. Never arrived. I never got them. And then I was in touch with her son Sam for many years. And then Sam died a couple of years ago. And then last year, I got an email from Sam's daughter Kate, who was clearing out her father's apartment. And in the back of the cupboard, she found some information that looked like it had been to Australia and back. And this was obviously the information the Netherlands. Personal papers that had been sent to me 20 years ago. So she sent me a lot of the information from those, which included a lot of photographs which would have been taken by Bill of him and Evelyn and Evelyn's son Stephen in the 1920s and 30s. Most of these had never been published before, never been seen before. Some of them, in fact, were damaged, and I had to pay a conservative to separate them and got some. Some beautiful images which ended up in the book. So that was the cherry on top, getting these fantastic photographs at the very last minute. [00:22:01] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. What a story. There's so many questions that come up from all that. So just peering back to the heart, you know, it appeared abandoned. Is it like a heritage site? [00:22:14] Speaker C: That's one of the. One of the things I did. Yes. Was one of. At the time, it wasn't. There's a funny story with that, too, because it's inside the Mount Hockens ski resort. And. And I've discussed this with the resort since, and I think they're happy with me saying this because the resort at the time was quite ambivalent about the house, and I think they are really hoping it would fall down. And they tried, to be honest, they tried to throw me off the track. I rang and I asked about this hut, and they said to me, do you realize it's privately owned? And I said, no. That's fascinating. Can you tell me who owns it? After some hesitation, I was given the name and phone number of the woman who owned it. And I rang her. Her name was Nancy Sullivan. And I said to her, nancy, look, my name is Stephen Markside. I'm interested in Sprygo's hut, and I'm told that you own it. And she said to me, you are kidding me. She said, I've been trying to prove that all my life. And Nobody believes me. So what had happened was Bill Spargo had sold the hut to Nancy's father, Harold Madison in 1955. Harold had since died. He'd been paying an annual rent to the shire of Omeo, transferred to the shire of Bryce. There was a fire in both offices, all records were lost. He died. There was a period of non payment. Nancy came of age and wanted to resurrect the family's claim on the hut. Started submitting payments to the shire of Brighton. Darling returned to her saying that too long had elapsed and the claim was not there. But obviously the resort didn't want to encourage any interest in the hut and they were and go try to throw me so I anyway, so I did nominate it for protection registration with the Historic Buildings Council which is now Heritage Victoria they said needed, they needed permission, they needed the cooperation of the resort before they could take an application to the minister that took another 18 months. So clearly the resort wasn't all that thin on the idea. Eventually it did go through and they told me it was the first non mansion to be registered in the state of Victoria, which was. Which was really interesting. And anyway I can say that the. Since that time the resort has changed its attitude completely and now that is the hut in the story greatly. And a couple of years ago they spent quite a lot of time and money to assist the Victorian High Country Hats association in a substantial refurbishment of the hut which took place over two weekends. So the hat is now very much a part of the program of summer activities at the resort. [00:24:33] Speaker A: They're crazy not to utilize such an amazing story and piece of Australian history as part of their like trails and stuff like that. [00:24:40] Speaker C: Yeah. But 40 years ago it all felt very different. If you look at a lot of these huts there's a similar story. You know there was Even in the 1970s some of these huts were burnt down, they were seen to be an eyesore and I think the national parks felt the same way about them and there's been a gradual change in community attitudes right across the Australian Alps over in the intervening period. And the story of Spargo's hut in that sense is not so different to a lot of other huts in Victoria. And you that right. [00:25:08] Speaker A: Or you'd think if they knew whose hut, who the hut belonged to, they would maybe just offer them a settlement to knock it down or maybe they weren't allowed or something, I don't know. [00:25:17] Speaker C: Well, I don't know how well I. Yeah I think they were just hoping. [00:25:23] Speaker A: Responded well it sounds like you've done masses of research. How did you end up finding the relatives? Was there a family tree or was it quite easy to get in touch with? [00:25:34] Speaker C: That's an interesting story actually. So the Ski Club of Victoria formed in, I think in 1924 or 1925 and they started putting out annual yearbooks. Bill Spargo, who built the house, he was the. He really founded the Mount Hoffam ski resort. What had happened was he'd got a job as he worked for the Country Roads Board and there was a road, I don't know how, if you're familiar with Victoria, probably not in there, but yes. So there's a road that runs across the mountains from Omeo to Harrodville and it goes over the Alpine road and it goes. It's now the highest seal road in Australia and it used to be frequented by mainly miners and prospectors moving from the gold fields of the Ovens Valley over to the gold fields of Amia and Bank. And it fell into disrepair during the First World War. And then in the 1920s there was a big push to resurrect it because of the growth tourism and motor cars and recreational skiing. And so in 1921 Bill Spargo was given the job as head of the road gang to resurrect this road. And in 1925 a stone cottage was built near the summit of Nan Hockham to house Bill and his co workers. And in the winter of 1925, Bill persuaded the Country Roads Board to allow him to take in paying guests during the winter months when they couldn't do any road work. And thus was bought, it was born the Mount Offam Ski Resort Foot the cottage became known as the Hotham Heights chalet. It had no license, so it was a chalet rather than a hotel. And this year 2025 marks the centenary of the original Hotham Heights chalet. So the Ski Club of Victoria became very active at the time too and they put out an annual yearbook. Bill Spargo wasn't the best. His passion was gold Crossfitting and he wasn't the ideal person for looking after guests really. And in 1928 he was given a partner called Helmut Kaufman to work with him. And Helmut Koepler was an Austrian and he was actually brought out to run the Herald Learn to Swim campaign at Portsea. But they realized he was a champion skier as well. So he was appointed as Bill's co manager. Unfortunately, Bill Spargo and Hill McCoughler were oil and water and they had a fight. And the athletic Kofla King Hit Bill and knocked him out and he'd end up in court and he had police trouble and so forth. Bill retreated from the mountain in 1928 to live with his younger brother Cecil in a Pasco Vale, a suburb of Melbourne. And at the end, at the end, Bill of course joined the skiff hub of Victoria as a member. And at the back of every yearbook they had the names and addresses of all the members. And I found in the 1929 yearbook that Bill Spargo's address was in Lansdowne Street, Pasco Vale. I thought that's very interesting. So I went and knocked on the door and the owner said it was not a Spargo who owned it, but she did remember the previous owner. And she said if you give this woman a ring, I think she can put you in touch with Bill's sister in law who's now in her 80s or 90s and is still alive. And I'm pretty sure she would talk to you. So I did and that's how I got in touch with Bill's family. Yeah. [00:28:42] Speaker A: Wow, that's amazing. And obviously the supplied you variant members and people supplied you with real documents from, you know, from them in terms of like writing their story and, and being sent this stuff. Is, is there like copyright involved and things like that or. No? [00:28:58] Speaker C: Well, you know what? I haven't. I'm not a trained oral historian. What I didn't do was get written consent from anybody, you know, copyright, yes, there is copyright. Anything written after 1955 is copyright. And it's to do with the death of when people die, isn't it? If they die before or after 1955. I think I, I took it that there was that everything I was given, I explained that I was writing a book. Everybody knew that I was planning to write a book. And by giving it to me, I took it as consent to. [00:29:30] Speaker A: For people who want to write narrative nonfiction or historical fiction, is that advice you would say to get. [00:29:35] Speaker C: Oh, definitely. I think it's. I do think so. I mean certainly with these photographs and with Evelyn's material, I've kept them in the loop at every stage and let them know what's going on and kept making sure that they're happy and so forth. They more or less given me my blessing to do everything, anything I want. But that wasn't. I didn't assume that at the start. And as far as Bill's, Bill's family is concerned, his great nephew Neville lives in Sydney. Once again, I've kept Neville involved at every stage and there's a couple of things Neville's asked me not to put on my website and not to put in the book. And I've respected that. That absolutely. There's no point in trying to cut corners in that way. [00:30:13] Speaker A: And I have to commend you. Obviously, you brought such a big work in the beginning and then you've actually seen this is not going to work, it's dry. You've seen issues with it and you undertook the writing course and then you saw how you could make it more snappier or things like that, which. Which is amazing because a lot of people might just think, oh, you know, I've put so much blood, sweat and tears into this bit, big form work. And they might find it very hard to let that go. That's amazing. Did you feel anything like that or you just knew? This is all. [00:30:42] Speaker C: You just knew it had to do. I had to do it, yes. I mean, I have had a lot of success with my writing in other forms and probably that gave me a certain confidence and a certain pragmatic way of looking at things. I've seen lots of other. My writing go nowhere or die of death. Things just. You just have to accept that there are times when you spend a huge amount of effort and it just goes nowhere. And that's just part of life or part of the lightning life, I think. To your darlings. Isn't that a phrase? [00:31:10] Speaker A: A phrase, yeah. Yeah. But I don't think any works. It's never in vain, obviously. [00:31:14] Speaker C: No, absolutely. No, absolutely. It's all just part of the process. Exactly. That's right. [00:31:18] Speaker A: And what we learn as well from writing each. [00:31:21] Speaker C: Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:31:24] Speaker A: Well. Australian history is rich with untold stories. What challenges did you face with the new work that you did, balancing the historical facts and with storytelling? [00:31:36] Speaker C: Basically said, I, I wasn't really going to. I wasn't going to invent anything substantial. I wasn't going to fundamentally change the story. And the fact of the matter is that it doesn't have a happy ending. And Bill was a difficult character and many people find him quite, quite unattractive character. I wasn't going to sugarcoat that either. One reviewer wrote that he made a comment that Whiteside doesn't try to persuade us to dislike like Bill. I thought that was. I was kind of. I like that comment. That was sort of nice. Not that it had ever occurred to me to do so, but I was just trying to be as truthful as I could to what I knew about them both. Having said that, there were a lot of gaps. I Made a decision to invent conversation. But I explained in the introduction that these conversations were invented, but conversations similar to these must have taken place. And so I was filling in, I was filling in gaps, but I wasn't inventing anything substantial. Absolutely. A rule I made for myself. Something I could live with myself and felt like. And there are some people who say oh, I wish it was a straight history and there is not a novel. And other people who say I'm sure that that is a novel and it's not a straight history. So the fact of the matter is you can't please anybody. The other thing is, I suppose that there's a reasonable amount of information about Bill Spargo already available in the public domain, but there's very little information about Evelyn. And some people even almost tried to deny her existence and people said rather unpleasant things about her and so on. So as much as anything, Snowfire and Gold is about bringing Evelyn into the public, making her visible, I suppose. And I'm conscious that, you know, women prefer fiction to non fiction and men are the opposite. So in a sense this is a book, book about a women for women more than it is a book about a man for men. If that makes sense. Yeah, it does, yeah. [00:33:30] Speaker A: And I love that. Have you ever thought about releasing the straight history one? The one that you thought was too? [00:33:36] Speaker C: I may do. I may put that as an ebook. One thing I did find there was one quite. In the course of rewriting it, I found there was one quite critical error of timing in there. So I would need to rewrite it to some extent because it was quite an important error. I had the timing of the construction of the hut wrong in the first and that is significant. So I would have to rewrite it net itself. There were pages of footnotes and references. So reorganizing that would in itself be quite a significant task. So it's not high on my list to be honest, but it's something I might get around to. I've got about three or four books I might write before I do the applicant. [00:34:14] Speaker A: Fantastic. Well, you chose to go down the self publishing route. How was that adventure for you? [00:34:20] Speaker C: Look, it's been good. I did. I submitted the last prospector to 20 publishers and got no response. I submitted the Snowfire and gold to 20 publishers and got a tiny bit of response, but not enough to really feel it was worthwhile. And I. And the other thing is, I wasn't entirely surprised. I knew there'd be a strong interest in the book around Man Hotham and the Towns around the Alpine National Park, Falls Creek, and then you've got the towns of Herrickville, Bright, Myrtleford, Wangaratta. On the other side you've got Omeo, Bruthen, Bairnsdale. I knew there'd be interest there and I knew that I'd struggled to get a lot of interest outside of that area. And from a publisher's point of view, I can see why you could look at the limited appeal and say, it's not going to be a commercial goer. On the other hand, I did. Did know the area pretty well. I knew. I didn't know the bookshop so well, but I knew the ski clubs. I knew an important museum and I knew that I'd be doing. And I knew that I was going to be passionate about it, sufficiently passionate about it to do a lot of legwork and just personally launching. I did 25 Orthodox last year. And mostly they were that sort of thing. There was a big hotel up in the mountain, there was a distillery nearby, Harrietville Museum, Wangaratta Ski Club. These were all. In a sense, you'd say they're not the traditional places where you might sell books, but I knew that they'd be keen to have me there as a speaker and there'd be people who would be. Who would attend, who would buy the book, you know, and so I knew I could make it work. But I could also understand why a publisher would be reluctant to believe me. And look. And the lovely thing is that it does give you so much control. World. You live or die by your own mistakes and, and, and they're all different skills. You've got to supervise the layout, you've got to edit it yourself, you've got to choose the photographs, you've got to be happy with the COVID I mean, that was the thing. I had a cover that. That I really. 11th hour, I really wasn't happy with at all. And I was feeling quite desperate. And over one weekend I decided the light went on. I've got to find a professional book cover designer independently of everything else and get them. And that's. And. And then they did that and I still wasn't very happy. And then my son had a brainwave that he thought one of Bill's photos might actually work well as a cover. And this was kind of the 11th hour of the 11th hour, really. The book designer said, you really want to start all over again? I said, I think we're going to have to. So we did, and it was the right thing to do, you know. So the COVID fell into at the place at the very last minute. And that's been great because it has that slightly kind of classy look and it can sit comfortably in a, in a gift shop. It doesn't look stodgy. It looks like a nice little object to have resting on a bookshelf or a desk. So that has worked well. And then there's the whole process of, of, of selling it. That's right. And so I had a serial, I put together a PowerPoint presentation and so I had a good one hour presentation based on the photos because I've taken a lot of photos myself of the hut back in 1987. So I start with these photos so it takes people into the hut and they can see why I became interested in the hut. So that was important. And then you've got to keep track of it all and this whole business of consignment business selling books and what the discount is and oh, it just goes on and on. [00:37:44] Speaker A: It's a lot, isn't it? [00:37:46] Speaker C: A lot of work. It is a lot of work. That's right. And you've got to keep track of all this and you've got to keep going back to them and saying, have you sold any books? Do you want me more? Do you want to return them? What do you owe me? Where are we up to? And you've got to do that over and over and over and over and over, you know, so it's a lot of work and there's a lot of, there's a lot of mileage because I live in Melbourne. So it's a long way to drive to these places. It's a good four or five hour drive just to start really. And I sent a copy back to the fellow in England, David Babbalane was his name, a story consultant who I bought these books from in the first place. And I said, what do you think? And he said, well, he said I would encourage to go ahead. This is before it was published. He said it's the sort of book that won't make a huge money first up, but it's timeless and if you just keep placing it in front of people for the next decade or so, there's no reason why it won't continue to sell, you know, so it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out because after the first year I haven't, I've almost made my money back. Not quite. That's not in clown, not, not counting time, putting time aside, but just in terms of the raw sort of financial output and input I'M almost in the black. Not quite. I think probably by the end of this winter I should be in the black and it'd be just be interesting to see how it plays out over the next decade. Assuming I've got the health and energy to keep promoting it. Yeah. [00:39:03] Speaker A: Oh, well, that's amazing. It sounds like you've come so far, you've done so much and it sounds very niche as well. And you've seen that and you've utilized that, that. Have you ever thought about doing and leading tours? If you're allowed up to the hut and then sharing the stories and then at the end, you know, the book. The book is included. [00:39:21] Speaker C: I reckon that it'd be a hard one to do it, really. That'd be a hard way to do it. [00:39:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Two hour walk out to the hut. [00:39:28] Speaker A: Oh, you can maybe like a half a day. A half a day with lunch included or something. Once a year. [00:39:32] Speaker C: Yeah. Retreat. I don't think I'll be doing that. [00:39:36] Speaker A: Fair enough. [00:39:37] Speaker C: No, to be honest, I used to think about that, running tours in the mountains. Yeah. But now I think that my time for doing that is plant talking. [00:39:45] Speaker A: Have you thought about outsourcing these, any of these jobs, really? [00:39:48] Speaker C: No, I don't think so, no. I mean, I've got this new book coming out and that'll be interesting to see how that goes. It's a smaller book. It's kind of a spin off of that project, actually, because I realized in interviewing these people that some of them had intrinsically fascinating lives and they had had more to offer than seek the information about Bill O'Reilly. And one of them in particular was this woman, Pearl Bradshaw. And I went back to interview her a second time because of that and I said, let's not talk about Bill O'Reilly, let's just talk about you this time. And. And her story was that she and her husband Jim had managed the Hotham heights Chalet between 1937 and 1945 for nine consecutive winters. And by this stage, do was well and truly out on his own as a gold prospector. But he continued to heal. They would employ him at the winter months to help out at the chalet. Pearl's husband Jim had died a few years earlier, so I couldn't interview him. But the 1939 fire, which was massive, probably the biggest bushfire Victoria's ever faced, it burnt out 2 million hectares and killed 71 people. And it burnt down the chalet. They were having dinner in the chalet at the time and the attic caught fire and they had to make a dash across the paddock and shelter in a well while the chalet burned down. And then they had to walk out the next day and they had a nine month old baby with them. So that was a dramatic story. And then they were there in the chalet through the entire Second World War as well. So I realized that I had enough information on Pearl to put out a book. It's even shorter, but I think it'll be okay. It's actually, it's about sort of 40, 45 little anecdotes with a lot of photographic material and images and so forth, background material and context. I'm in the stages of putting that together now. And that'll be a part of companion book. But I'm going to make it look as much as possible. Well, not too much like the first one, but enough that people recognize the similarities between the two. And I've got the same designer covering the design for this second book and so forth. So that will sit beside it. And I suppose in some ways that will also continue to promote interest in the first. And then I've got ideas for a third and fourth. So I can see myself of putting together a bit of a series. I think they would help each other to sell. Well, that's the theory anyway. [00:42:01] Speaker A: No, it's a spot on theory, I think. Absolutely. Small collection together. And that sounds like a really, really interesting story for writers looking to bring historical storytelling to life in their nonfiction. You've shared so much already, Stephen, but do you have any advice for authors on crafting compelling historical narratives while staying true to the past? Anything you want. [00:42:23] Speaker C: It begs the question, what comes first, the historical narrative or being true to the past? In my case, the narrative was shaped by the facts already as I knew them. Because I wasn't creating a narrative and then looking for his historical accuracy, if you understand what I'm saying. It was done the other way around, really. There was one writer, a historian, a professional historian, I approached, who encouraged me. He's one critic. I sent him the manuscript. He's one criticism was that some of the colloquialisms I'd used were modern colloquialisms and they wouldn't have been used in the 1930s and 40s. I felt I was in a bit in two minds about that. I could see his points from a theoretical point of view. I wasn't convinced that it would make all that much difference at the end of the day, because if I wasn't aware of them, the average reader wasn't going to Be aware of them either. Maybe I put. I did put a couple in, but I thought if I start putting too much of this stuff in, it's going to be starting to feel about artificial. Because when I wrote the book, it felt very organic and fluent. And I didn't want to disrupt that sense too much. So I decided not to be too precious about that. I did. I think I did switch a few words over, but I didn't go down that rabbit hole to anything like the degree that I think he would have liked me, to be honest. I think I made the right decision. I don't think that was an issue. Historical accuracy. I think that. Look, I think historical accuracy is important. I was focusing on a very specific area in time and place that I was reasonably confident about already. And there was been quite a lot written and I'd read pretty well everything that had been written about it. And if anybody found anything that was inaccurate, I did my very best to correct it as quickly as possible. I think that's important, getting other people whose knowledge base you respect to review the manuscript and see it mark things up. I'm not a prospect or miner by any stretch of the imagination. I have a friend who's a geophysicist. So I got him to review the manuscript from that point of view, and he picked up one critical error in the book, which was great. You're a bit in two minds about you. You know, on the one hand, you don't want to be told there's lots of problems with the text. On the other hand, if there are, it's much better to find out before the book's published than after the book's published. The other thing was, I was in a huge. At the end of the day, I was in a huge rush to get the whole thing out because I wanted to have it in time for the opening of the ski season. And I reached a point where I say there's going to be errors in this book. I'm going to do a limited print run, get it out there, and then I'll tidy them up. For the second print run, I ended up doing four print runs, 250. And there were significant improvements in every one. But the funny thing is, I've got a friend who's done something similar to me. He's done a series. Books on Alpine history, they're not novellas, they're straight histories. A bit like an encyclopedia of alpine people. And he said, yeah, my first books had all. My first big runs had lots of errors. He said, but the funny Thing is, as years go by, people all want the early ones with the errors. [00:45:20] Speaker A: How so? [00:45:22] Speaker C: It's the authenticity. You know, it's the first street run that was the first. That's what they want. And the fact that there are errors give the kind of a. I don't know, it gives it a kind of an earthy authenticity, I suppose. You know, they weren't. I mean, they weren't so much huge factual errors, but they were just spelling and layouts and grammar errors. It didn't disturb your ability to comprehend the text. [00:45:44] Speaker A: I like that. I think that's absolutely fantastic. And honestly, you've shared so much. Stephen, thank you so much. What an absolute story and author adventure you have been on. And can you tell our listeners where can they discover everything you do, your book, books, everything like that online or offline in the bookstores? [00:46:00] Speaker C: So I. The other. That's. I haven't touched on that. I decided to create a website to. I already have an author website, which I basically put together to publicize my children's book in 2014. And I was in two minds whether to add a. Add a page for the book, for this book to that website or whether to just start a new website. And I decided that the book deserved its own website. So I've just created a new website called snowfire and gold, snowfireandgold.com and I. And there's so much stuff, research material that I couldn't put in the book. I thought that's the place to put it all. So there's a lot of huge number of photographs that wouldn't go into the book. All the original interviews have been digitized and they're all on the website. So you can actually go and listen to these people firsthand. I've made a few videos up there, some of the personal letters and documents. They're all up there as well. You can buy the book through the website, too. And if you want a signed copy of, then if you buy the book through snowfireandgold.com you'll get a personally signed copy of the book. Otherwise, you can just buy through Amazon Online like any other book. One other thing, the children's book I had was called the Billy that Died With Its Boots on, another Australian verse. And the Billy that Stared With Its Boots on was the name of one of the poems in the book, Walk. And it was actually based on a walk with my son to Spargo's hut back in the early years of this century. And just put simply, we'd been walking out to this house and we had a. I used to have billies tied to the back of my pack and there was no track in those days. So we're bush bashing and walking out one day I could hear that the billy was jammed on one side of my pack, but not on the other. And I took my pack off and sure enough the billy had been torn off by a branch. I retraced some steps and couldn't find it. And it was an old favorite billy of mine. So I thought, well, at least it didn't just get run over by the car in the garage. It was lost on the track. It died with its boots on. So I wrote this little poem. So Fargo's hat's been weaving its way into my writing for a long time now. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's amazing. And as you're talking. What about doing a children's book with this? All the information? Yeah, they love that sort of stuff. [00:48:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I've sort of looked. I must confess I've moved away from writing for children. I still. I was reading something recently about how the brain changes over time and I think mine has done that. And I used to write a lot of poetry for children. And the New South Wales School Education Department has a school magazine called New South Wales School Magazine and they are actually the longest running children's magazine in the world book. They've been going non stop since 1916. And I've had a lot of poems published in New South Wales School Magazine and they became the basis. But half the poems in the book had been published in School magazine. Anyway, what I'm finding is these days when I was doing that, I couldn't write this book. It was a different type of writing. These days I find that all the poems I submit to School magazine, they all get rejected. But I can write this book. So something has changed in my brain over those years. And look, let's face it, writing can choose children. This is a different topic, but it's a lot harder than writing for adults, really. [00:49:13] Speaker A: It is. I've got the same similar story to you that I started out with the children's fiction and now I'm in women's fiction. And I just feel so freeing to be able to speak the way I want to speak, swear, talk about anything. Children, you've got to really parent back and think of the age and sing to their. Delicate. [00:49:31] Speaker C: Delicate. Yeah. And the gatekeepers, you've got to think of the gatekeepers, the parents and the teachers and the editors and so forth. That's right. You know, I wrote a poem the Other day, which I thought was actually might work for kids, but it's got a line in it, you know, wake up in the morning and I feel like kicking the cat. I thought that's not gonna work, you know. [00:49:49] Speaker A: Oh, so love that. But yeah, you might not be allowed that. [00:49:53] Speaker C: Exactly. That's right. It's a lot harder. There's a lot of self censorship goes on when you're writing for kids, which is. I'm not complaining. I mean, I write rhyming verse and there is no commercial market in Australia for writing rhyming verse for adults, but there is for writing rhyming verse for children. That's what I found. So I still do write rhyming verse for adults, but it's just a kind of a passion thing really. I don't expect to get any remuneration for that. But. So writing for kids is something that's slipped into the background a bit. [00:50:23] Speaker A: It sounds like you've been super busy with everything else. [00:50:25] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. Yes. And I'm excited about potential future projects which I never would have envisaged. I really thought that I would just write this book and that would. I'd be done. But now I can, I suppose it's confidence and experience. I can now see a whole lot of other ways to explore the story. And the good thing about the Last Prospector is that it has become a valuable resource in its own right. So I can take. While I can't publish that book, I can take pieces of that book and reshape them as other books, you know, so. [00:50:54] Speaker A: Absolutely. It sounds like your website as well as resource and an archive. [00:50:58] Speaker C: I hope so. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff up on that website and I say to people, somebody said to me, a bookseller said, look, as soon as he heard it was I had a follow, wanted to buy the book. As soon as he heard it was fiction, he lost interest. And I said, well listen, that's fine. You tell him to go to their website and if he's really serious he can listen to all those interviews and they're just in their raw stage, you know. He said, well, that's very interesting, I will tell him that. He said, so people compare, if they want to, they can compare what I've written in the book to the interviews. And I think you'll find that the is I haven't changed anything to any significant degree. [00:51:29] Speaker A: It just sounds like a really good resource for schools and things like that. That's why I was asking them. [00:51:34] Speaker C: And I did see the Shire of writing reference it somewhere. Yeah, it'll probably take a while for the word to get around. I one of the guys I spoke to was. One of the groups I spoke to was prospectors and miners and one of the interviewees was a keen prospector, pioneering prospector really. And they'd obviously I told them about the website and they'd been online and listened to the interview and finding it interesting and they'd said, I don't know anybody else's job during this and giving the information away for free. I thought, gee, does that mean people charge for this? Maybe never occurred to me. I know I'm not going to, but, you know, that was quite interesting. [00:52:09] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much, Stephen, for your time and expertise. It's been absolutely incredible talking to you and everything you've shared and thank you so much. [00:52:17] Speaker C: Well, thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity. I hope other people can get something out of it. It's great to have the opportunity. Big. I love talking about it and there's a limit to how much you can talk about to your patients at work without it starting to feel a bit inappropriate. [00:52:31] Speaker A: Well, thanks again. [00:52:32] Speaker C: Okay, good on you. Thanks a lot. [00:52:35] Speaker D: The world we knew is gone. Humanity's future Rest on Horizon Moon Chemical Rocketeers is a sci fi podcast that dares you to embark on the ultimate journey of survival, exploration and triumph against the odds. In a post apocalyptic universe, the Rocketeer colony stands as humanity's last hope. They're a resilient group of survivors who are fighting to rebuild civilization after Earth's nuclear devastation. Each mission they take is a test of courage, every choice a battle for survival. From heart pounding action to moments of unity and hope. Chemical Rocketeers invite you to explore an intricate world where mysteries unfold, a alliances are forged and the spark of humanity's legacy burns bright. Join Rocketeer Colony and become a part of the story on Spotify, iHeartRadio, YouTube and wherever you listen to podcasts for exclusive content and behind the scenes glimpses, find them on Instagram and TikTok. The universe is waiting. Are you ready to rise with the Rocketeers? Add Chemical Rocketeers to your podcast platform playlist right now. [00:53:50] Speaker B: So there you have it folks. The truly exceptional and inspiring Stephen Whiteside. What a born storyteller he is. Next time on the Hybrid Author podcast we have Deborah pike, author of the Players on what to do after your first novel is published. Deborah is a writer and academic based in Sydney. She grew up in Northam and Perth, Western Australia. She has an honours degree in English from the University of Western Australia and a PhD from the University of Sydney. She is an associate professor of English Literature at the University of Notre Dame, Sydney, and is the winner of an Australian Government award for university teaching. Deborah has travelled widely and lived in Paris for several years, where she held positions at Shakespeare & Co. Bookstore, the organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the University of Paris 7, and the Paris Institute of Political Studies, Sciences Po. She is the author of the Subversive Art of Zelda Fitzgerald, which was shortlisted for the AUHE Award in Literary Criticism. The Players, published by Fremantle Press in 2024, is her first novel. Amazing interview with Deborah coming up this week and as always, I wish you well in your author adventure. That's it from me. It's bye for now. That's the end for now authors. I hope you are further forward in your author adventure after listening, and I. [00:55:02] Speaker A: Hope you'll listen next time. [00:55:03] Speaker B: Remember to head on over to the Hybrid Author website at www.hybridauthor.com to get your free offer pass. It's bye for now.