Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello authors. I'm Joanne Morell, children's and young adult fiction writer and author of short nonfiction for authors. Thanks for joining me for the Hybrid author podcast, sharing interviews from industry professionals to help you forge a career as a hybrid author, both independently and traditionally publishing your books. You can get the show notes for each episode and sign up for your free author pass over at the hybrid Author website to discover your writing process, get tips on how to publish productively, and get comfortable promoting your book at www.hybridauthor.com au. Let's crack on with the episode.
Hello authors. I hope you're all keeping well in whatever part of the world you reside and listen to the podcast in today's interview is a merry Xmas mashup of all remaining guests since September 2023 to now. This includes episode 92 preparing for podcast appearances with me, Joanne Morell episode 93 tess woods on the Little Red Street Library episode 94 writing authentic historical fiction with S. J. Butler episode 95 workshopping in libraries with children's indie author Christineita Brine episode 96 writing the shadow with Nonfiction Award nominated New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author Joanna Penn episode 97 picture book author Kai Garvey on making time to write being a creative carer to children with special needs. Episode 98 larrikin House publishers Danny V. And James Layton on submissions and the hybrid business model. Episode 99 Sarah Epstein a year in the Life of an indie author episode 100 lessons learned hitting 100 episodes of the hybrid author podcast with me, Joanne Morell episode 101 writing through difficult times with children's co author Lauren Hackney episode 102 producing indie audiobooks for kids with Julianne Grasso episode 103 an Almost Merry Xmas mashup for 2023 episode 104 mental health and writers with memoir prose poet Cynthia Marie Hoffman episode 105 from manuscript to bestseller the transformative power of professional guidance with author and visionary entrepreneur Andrea Puting. So all that's coming up now.
So in my author adventure this week, I read an interesting article from the alliance of Independent Authors from their self publishing newsletter. The 19 December issue, written by Dan Holloway, and the title was self publishing news study suggests reading in print better for us. But what does that mean? So I just wanted to read you a bit from the article because I found it really interesting, and I think you might too. However popular digital formats get, there is something that seems to mean reading in print has never lost its appeal, even amongst new generations discovering reading as digital natives. Alongside this, there is regular debate about whether some forms of taking in books, such as listening to audio, can be counted as reading at all. This has meant much research has gone into answering the question, is reading imprint actually different from other sorts of reading? There has been so much research, in fact, that the University of Valencia has, and I hope I'm saying that right, has just completed a meta study of it. So that is that they have tried to draw on any common strands from all the studies that have been done. So what the study says is reading text in print, it seems and leads to far greater comprehension than reading text digitally, especially among early years schoolchildren. I can feel a certain contingent nodding approvingly at this result, but unpack it a little further. And to borrow a phrase, that might not be the hot take they think it is, there's a really interesting comment from the study's authors. Digital reading habits do not pay off as much as print reading. That is why when recommending reading activities, schools and school leaders should emphasize print reading more than digital reading. So obviously that's aimed at children's book writers there and parents. The study showed that when it came to acquiring skills through reading, print was six to eight times more effective than digital. They speculate about the causes, such as attention issues from notifications on their digital reading devices, without even considering what that would mean for reading on a simple kindle. So I guess they are, they're sort of saying reading, if they get notifications on their devices, can take them maybe out of their reading things, and the attention span just gets taken all over the shot which falling down the rabbit hole. We all do it with our technologies, whereas sitting down reading a book, it's attention focusing, I guess. And I also find as well, especially as a writer, I'm actually looking at the words. I'm looking at spelling, grammar, punctuation, the way things are. Know if you're reading an audiobook, as Dan Holloway says, are you reading it? I believe you are, but you're not viewing the words. You're getting something else different, though. You're getting pacing, pausing, and you're probably getting that when you're reading as well. But hearing a narrative, there's skills that come up for all different formats. I believe listening skills is a really good one to have as well, the article says. But is reading just about comprehension? About gaining skills? Reading is one of the richest and most variable experiences we undergo as humans. The takeaways from the study feel somewhat utilian, and the study itself doesn't seem to understand what digital reading actually is. So that was the end of the article. It was quite short and sweet. Just found that article really interesting about print. Any kind of reading. The way that people consume things is important to us as authors because obviously we are writing books and whatever format they go in, depending on who you write for, it all helps with selling in the end. Exactly that. If you're writing for children, perhaps the digital side, you're not going to focus on that as much as a print and then say you're going for like an older woman's demographic, busy person. Maybe the audiobook market is more just thinking about how people consume is important, obviously for our businesses. So if you are an independent author or you aspire to be one, and you've considered joining the alliance of Independent Authors, or you haven't even heard of it, they are a UK advocate for indie authors worldwide. They host some amazing self publishing events. I attended an online conference this year and I plan to get a bit more involved in this area next year, especially indie publishing. My women's fiction, which is going to be written under a pseudonym, it's not going to be under Joanne Morrell. Anywho, if you are interested in looking at this further, I am an affiliate, so if you're planning on doing it anyway, you can join through my link which I will put in the show notes and I get a little bit of my membership compensated off, I think. So the link is WW dot allianceindependentauthors.org question mark afid equals 17351 so as I said, I'll put the link in the show notes if you want to go through it. So it's super interesting that print succeeds the way I'm only giving my kids print books this year because quite frankly, they get enough screen time watching YouTube videos and playing games on the iPad. They do listen to borrowbox to go to sleep, not so much the older one now starting to fall off, but the younger one definitely does, so she listens to that. They don't read ebooks at this stage. I've mentioned before, I'm a multi reader. I read across all genres and all formats. However, giving gifts this year I have only given print books. My mum is getting Johnny Ruffle's biography, no finish line. And for those of you who don't know, Johnny Ruffle was a really young guy from Western Australia who first appeared on, I think it was the X Factor or one of these singing shows and he was just such a lovely soul. We were watching it back then. When he came on, he was gorgeous. He was a builder, no prior singing background, but he was like a dancer and everybody loved him and a joy to be around. Anyway, I ended up to go on to these reality tv shows and he got a gig on home and away I think it was. And then his world turned upside down when he was diagnosed with like brain tumor, brain cancer or whatever it was. I need to read his book to find out the whole of his story. I did watch a tribute to him as well. It was just so sad because he passed away like a couple of months back and he was so young and he's just like a light stuffed out too young.
As soon as my mom opens the book, and especially Christmas, I know she's going to be oh no, heartbroken because it's just as a heartbreaking story. But I think it's important to I wanted to buy his book and I think apparently some of the book's money goes to his wife or fiance, whoever she was to him in his memory. So I also asked for I'm a massive friends the tv show Lover. I honestly watched all the episodes back to back when I was like twelve and could recite them and just have watched it ever since. And so yes, I was devastated this year when to find out Matthew Perry had passed on. So I have asked for his biography from my mum and his biography is friends, lovers and the big terrible thing. And between us, my sister and my mum, we pass books around. So I know it's all one that we wanted to. So there's sort of some big stars, not huge, but, well, Matthew Perry. But for my kids I supported indie authors. Local indie authors. Not all indie. There's one that's not. And I've shared a couple of posts on Facebook and Instagram about the books that I have chosen for them. And there is all these posts that go around social media at Christmas time, and it shouldn't just be Christmas, but that's when it's gift giving to say, if you want to support an indie author, or an author in general, even if you can't afford to buy their book, review their book online, recommend it to a friend. Those are the things that actually help authors make sales and help them with their business. So you don't just have to buy the books, there's lots of things you can do. So with that, I haven't given any subscriptions to, say, audible or audio platforms or ebook reading platforms for people to be able to buy digitally, although my sister is a massive ebook reader. So yeah, I just wondered. It's just interesting to look at your buying habits, those of those around you, I would imagine subscription or gift card buying is a thing. Just interested if you go local or in what format do you give your book gifts?
Have you been giving the gift of reading this Christmas? And if so, I would love to hear what books you expect to find under your tree or what ones you're passing on to your family. It really doesn't matter, in my opinion, what format story comes in. Story is story. It's my passion. Wherever it comes from, in whatever format. I'm a massive film and tv buff and I do aspire to write in this style. One day. I just can't. I can't do it all right now, even though I think we could. Yeah, and the book ideas keep coming, sticking fast and more so than I'm able to keep up. But I'm going to share all my lessons learned in my final wrap up episode next week.
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Preparing for podcast appearances podcast process every podcast is different in the way it does things. So if you've never listened to a podcast and you want to be on one, you need to choose the ones that you feel most interested in. Listen to those and see where you fit, like Alison said in the blog. So on the hybrid author podcast, I define a topic I'd like to speak with an industry professional about. Not really just authors. I speak with publishers, booksellers and other industry organizations, all sorts of individuals which can share knowledge to help an author on their author adventure or deepen their interest in the industry. So for me, I don't really source books. Occasionally I have, but I'm more interested in talking about other aspects that link back to the book. Once a topic of interest has been established, I then send a zoom link and some questions to work as a guide ahead of time so the participant can prepare and have an understanding of the way I tailor the episode. Other podcasts, however, usually just wing it, and they prefer an organic conversation, and that's all good, too. Questions can organically materialize within my podcast episodes, but I know I would never outright ask a person anything that they couldn't answer. It would be based upon what we were already externally talking about. So I think podcasters believe the best form of podcasting is the natural conversation over, say, a scripted podcast. And of course that makes sense. But for newbies and people who don't hold that much podcast experience or appearances or public speaking stuff, having something written down to act as a guide will aid you and keep you on track to the key information you'd like to share. So sometimes the reason that I have laid out my podcast the way it is by sending questions ahead of time is because when I first started out podcasting, I knew nothing. I'd been listening to podcasts for a long time, but I just felt like it's being prepared, really. This is what I want to discuss. We don't have to discuss it exactly in order. Question one, question two, question three, whatever. Sometimes it bounces around, sometimes I don't even ask some of the questions because we've found something else interesting to talk about. It's organically the conversation has grown from that. My questions usually just work as a guide to let the other person know this is what I want to talk to them about and help them prepare. I'm interested in an organic conversation, but also I'm prepared. And I like to prepare the other person for what they're expecting. And I also interview a lot of debut authors and people who have never podcasted before. I interview all ranges of people. I think it's just for me, I feel like it's just courtesy, but everybody's different and that's up to them. The response has just blown me away. I just thought it would be really cute to open up a little library. And in the last three months, I've met more of my neighbors. I've been living here for 20 years, but I have met more neighbors in three months than I've met in 20 years. I've had mums stop and tell me how much their kids love it and elderly neighbors who don't drive anymore. So they're like, I'm so happy to have a library I can walk to, and I don't need someone to drive me to the library. Yeah, that's amazing. I've got a little tub of doggy treats in there. And it's hilarious because some of my neighbors have said that they now need to plan their walking route to avoid the library if they don't want to stop, because their dogs are refusing to walk past it now until they have stopped and opened it up and given them a treat, because they've learned that that red box has things inside. When you're writing historical fiction, it's also important to get across the day to day business of, in this case, living in the 1840s, which is sort of quite challenge, I think, quite different from today. Yes, it is very different. Certainly, for instance, certainly in India at the time, which is where the armies essentially came from, to invade Afghanistan. At that time, there was no rail transport in that sense, and this is just an example. The fastest that things could move was the speed of a man on horseback. So news travelled relatively know what we'd considered to be quite slowly. And that had to be accounted for in the novel, which was tricky. I had to set up timelines so that everything gelled in terms of when people were sending letters, receiving letters, all that kind of thing. Yeah, that's interesting. Something you don't really think about, isn't it? Yeah. Medicine was another issue in terms of what was around in those days in the way of medicinal treatments and so on. What time frame would you say if you were pitching this year? Would you be pitching now, you say, for next year? Or when should you do timing this? Yeah, so I think it's important to have some news. I don't mean about, like a huge email about, I've done this, I've done that, I've done that. I think it's important to have one key piece of information that will hook them in. So, like, for example, if you've been shortlisted in a competition or you've been placed in something, or you've had a whole bunch of sales on, I don't know, Amazon, or you've got a bit of news, I think that helps to hook them in. I've also sent them a link to podcasts like yours, where I go, this is what I'm like live and just give them a taster. So that helps. And then I think that right now I'm booking for December, January holidays and 2024. I think if you're new to this, you really need to start with a champion. You really need to find the right person in your local area to get you through those first couple of presentations. Until you've done that, I definitely wouldn't email out cold. I would wait until I've got something to show, kind of have to go back to basics, and I feel like that's what this is. We spend a lot of time over intellectualizing the writing process, but at heart, we're emotional people, and a lot of this stuff just means a lot. That's why there is shadow around publishing, because it means so much to us, and we have this idea of success, whether it's traditional or self publishing. And when we don't hit that level of success, whatever that means to you, that's when things can be difficult. But, yeah, I think it's about moving through that. And again, the idea of working around the shadow is, what are some of these things that are coming up for me, and how can I incorporate that into my life in order to move forward? And this is really important because writing the shadow is not a psychology book or a therapy book. That means you should dwell in the darkness. It's about incorporating aspects into your writing, into your life, and moving forward in order to achieve what you want to achieve. To change your mindset. If you've had a bad day, sitting down and writing for an hour is actually a really good way to put yourself in a different place in your mind. So for me, I find it quite good to relax when I write, but also especially, and I think maybe all mums find this a little bit, that you lose your identity a little bit because you're so focused on raising your children that it actually feels really good to find yourself again. Especially when I was younger, I used to just go with the flow and found myself not where I wanted to be. And I feel much more satisfied with my life now that I feel like it's more under my control. So finding who you are. So for me, I'm like, well, I'm a good writer. This gives me satisfaction. I've got evidence that I'm a good writer, so that gives me confidence. I've found that writing has been a really good tool for me, especially when I was feeling like I had lost control of my own life.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: It does feel like a lot of rhyming stories are first drafts in a manuscript assessment. I'll often take out Danny's. My epic dad takes us camping, and I'll read it as fast as I can, get the words out of my mouth, and the listener becomes aware fairly quickly that it's got perfect rhyme and rhythm. And then I'll say, listen, if your rhyme's not that good, it won't get published. You have to be that good. You can't have flawed rhyme because a lot of publishers won't touch rhyme. There's a couple of reasons for that, and this is a good tip. Publishers don't like rhyming books because I can't take your rhyming story and sell it to the korean publishers, or the spanish publishers, or the yugoslavian publishers, or the Chinese, because they can't make it rhyme in their own language, so they'll often pass on it. And foreign rights deals are a big part of publishing. So that's why a lot of publishers won't touch rhyme, because it really lessens their chances of getting territorial sales on it. So I would often find myself encouraging writers. Write it in prose. Just write the story in prose. It's a bigger market. It doesn't lend itself as well to pace and humor like rhyme does. But it's better for storytelling, because the worst rhyme crimes we see in rhyme are people are using words in their story and objects and people and things in their story. And that thing is only there because it rhymed with the line before, not because that thing actually adds to the story. So it's almost, rhyme can actually be the enemy of storytelling because you end up with a beautiful page of rhyming words and no story because you got things in your story that have no reason to be there other than the fact that that word rhymed with the line above or whatever your sequence is. So I think rhyme is a lot harder than you think it is, especially when it comes to storytelling. And story is king. So rhyme is not king. Story is king. So if rhyme is affecting your storytelling, write it in prose. You got a better chance of getting published anyhow.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: And I'd just like to say that the rhyme didn't come easy for me. I mean, thank you for your compliment, James, but it wasn't something that I wrote over lunch. I labored over those rhymes. I immersed myself and was obsessed with rhyme zone and with my trusty thesaurus. And I remember spending a ridiculous amount of time on some lines. I remember spending weeks on some of those lines. And I think that's okay because I got to a point where I was really happy with it. And the rhyme has been commented on a lot, but it's hard work. It doesn't happen accidentally, it doesn't happen easily. So I think if you're going to do rhyme, you need to commit to it, and you've got to understand that it is going to take you weeks and months and days to write a picture book, which you may not want that, but I think with rhyme. Unless, I don't know, you're a genius. Maybe Julia Donaldson is. I'm not. You just have to work really hard at it. Just knowing that we can write whatever we want to write and it will get published in some form or another. I think for me that has really made my creativity explode. So I'm having trouble pinning down all of my ideas and following something through at the moment because the ideas are coming so thick and fast because I think, yeah, I can do this and I'll send that maybe trad pub, and then I'm going to do this. And then I could write for an adult audience and I can do this. I could do this under a know, the possibilities are endless. And when you compare that to somebody who might have been trad published, their first book didn't do so well, their second book was barely visible and they disappeared and they've just gone back to their day job and they're not going to write anymore. That to me is pretty heartbreaking. So I feel that self publishing has really worked for me and my mindset in that way, in that I feel as creative now as I ever have, probably more so and excited about all of the different things and the possibilities. So podcast processes the way in which the podcast works hasn't changed too much from when I first started podcasting to now. I use the same program to edit the podcast. I use the same software to record and conduct interviews. I use the same microphone and headset and the same hosting platform to store my audio files for distribution to be uploaded to all the podcast apps. I use the same promotional icon with audio snippet from the episode to circulate across social media. What has changed is the amount of questions. I used to provide a podcast guest up front. I used to send about ten questions and now I send about four. I aim for around 20 to 30 minutes interviews instead of 40 to 60. And this all helps with the time it takes to edit the podcast. It used to take me many, many hours to edit the podcast. I have definitely honed these skills and cut time down by spreading out the tasks required to put the podcast together throughout the week. So my release day is on a Friday. It's always been on a Friday. So on a Wednesday I edit the main interview. On a Thursday I record and edit my intro and outro pieces and author adventure spiel. I also might do the promo icon and then plan is to upload early Friday. I don't stick to a specific time on Friday and it's usually never that early, but it has always been a Friday. I've never missed a day. And generally that has helped. That process has helped make putting the podcast together and editing appear less big, full chunks of time because sometimes I can be sitting, it feels like half a day doing all that sort of stuff. So all these little tweaks has helped my process podcast process get faster and more effective time wise, and probably listenership wise as well. And then there was no work at all. That was hard because I didn't know what to do at all. So I did find alternate work, but that work, it wasn't enough to pay the bill. Some weeks, like if anyone has worked hair industry where it's casual work and it's not full time, and if a client no longer needs you and you have no work for that day, you no longer get paid. And it was a very fish out of water moment, you could say for me, because having two little kids at the time who were six and eight who were little, I didn't want my situation affecting them either, because the pandemic was new for them too. They couldn't go out and play soccer and do things that they loved to do, and they couldn't just go see family and friends. So I tried my best to hide my heartbreak. Some days I was good at it, other days I wasn't. And I remember six months on where the country started opening up a little bit, doing this camping trip with friends and telling a lolly shop story. It brought back a bit of life, I guess my question is, do you feel like someone has to be a professional voice person or someone who can sing to be able to voice their own audiobooks? I don't think you need to be a singer at all, but you certainly need to have played around with your voice. Done silly accents. Not every voice narrator uses 79 different accents. My first Frankie book has about twelve accents in and I'm technically listening to your accent right now, Joe, and probably going to try and replicate it one day, you know what I mean? I do have a scottish accent that I pull out because I can roll my ars very well. But my husband's italian and he doesn't actually speak Italian at home. And when we were in Italy I understood more than he did and I was able to sort of say more words back because I was a singer that learnt to sing in Italian and to roll my r's. But I don't think you don't need to be a singer at all. You just need to want to read books. I just started. I don't think that I have any particular talent at it. I just started, and I've made a go of it. And I think a lot of people fall into voice narration because they've got a nice sounding voice, and people say, oh, I like the sound of your voice. And that has happened to me as well, but can have a really very different sounding voice and still be a voice narrator. So the answer is yes and no. I absolutely agree. I think when I started podcasting, especially going back to edit, I just cringe, like the sound of my voice. And you get used to it, though, and you don't have to love it, but you can learn to kind of like it. And I think there's some audiobooks where you don't have to do. I'm a big audiobook person myself as well, and you don't have to do so many voices, I guess, as long as you've got passion or animation coming through for each character, or it's not just that bland monotone. A lot of people might have OCD, but you don't notice or you don't know or realize. But it can be a very debilitating illness. It can cause people to not be able to leave their homes or not be productive in any way because they're trapped in a cycle of obsessions and compulsions that is very hard to break through. It sounds really scary, and I definitely have big empathy there. Do you have tools to help you through these obsessive. You keep saying sort of period. So I take it comes and goes? Yeah. I think the compulsions are sort of always with me. I just live with them. They're my little friends.
I count anything that's a square or a rectangle in my field of vision. I'm just constantly counting it in my mind. I'm doing it right now.
It's just a part of my. It's kind of like a low level irritation that's always there, and I would love for it to be gone, but I've come so late. I feel like I've come so late to treatment in a way that other forms of treatment have helped me over the years, to not give the intrusive thoughts, which can sometimes be quite scary and upsetting, to give them much power. I think the most important thing for an author is truly to believe in themselves and their message, and to know that what they're writing or written will change someone's life and that will make a difference and that will ripple out into the world. So what you have to say is important and it is worth sharing. Never let anyone tell you otherwise and just keep going until you get there and getting it into be a bestseller. It sounds big and hard and daunting, but with the right advice, it's not that hard. No, I love that. That's really good advice there. Because as someone who has struggled with probably self doubt and self belief and self worth for most of the writing life that I've had so far. Yeah. I'm only truly now at a point where it's quieting those voices, I suppose, for many things, but I see the impact that having low self not. Well, all those things has on your writing as well. It can stop a person in their tracks from actually putting out their story. Yeah. Or they get halfway through their book and no one's going to read this. Yeah, I just finish it. Yeah, that's a go daily from this is great. I'm really on to sound really good here. And then the next day you pick it up and you're like, yeah, that greatness from yesterday's like just being fireballed. And I think that's just part and parcel of what it's like, you know?
So there you have it, folks. A merry Xmas mashup of some fabulous minds and author insights into a variety of different topics and experiences. I truly wish you well, a very merry Christmas when it comes. I really hope you have a fabulous day with friends and family. If you're in the snow or like me, sweating in the summer, we do our usual sort of the family get togethers, that type of thing. Who knows, we might even do the beach this year. But I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to look up some games and do some silly stuff. And I'm excited to see my kids opening their presents on Christmas day. For me, that's what it's about. And we've got some nice food to eat. I bought the salmon Wellington. I'm looking forward to having my salmon Wellington. And always a turkey.
Everybody buys a ham and we've got a ham and it's nice. But Christmas ham doesn't feel Christmassy to me. So whatever you're doing, I hope it's amazing. If you're on your own, Merry Christmas to you and do something nice for yourself. And for those of you who struggle at this time of year, because a few of the episodes that I've put on this month, it's really for some people. It's a really hard time. They've been through a lot, and maybe this time of year is a trigger. So thinking of you all next time on the Hybrid author podcast. The final episode for 2023 will be lessons learned in 2023 and what's in store for 2024. So I wish you well in your author adventure this next week. That's it from me. Bye for now. That's the end for now. Authors. I hope you are further forward in your author adventure after listening, and I hope you'll listen next time. Remember to head on over to the hybrid author website at www. W dot hyperdother.com dot au to get your free author pass. It's bye for now.
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