Kindness Begins Within, Annie Kwan on Writing 'The Finch Who Lost Her Wing'

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello authors. [00:00:01] Speaker B: I'm Joanne Morrell, children's and young adult fiction writer and author of short nonfiction for authors. [00:00:07] Speaker A: Thanks for joining me for the Hybrid Author Podcast, sharing interviews from industry professionals to help you forge a career as a hybrid author, both independently and traditionally publishing your books. [00:00:18] Speaker B: You can get the show notes for. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Each episode and sign up for your. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Free Author pass over at the Hybrid Author website to discover your writing process. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Get tips on how to publish productively. [00:00:28] Speaker B: And get comfortable promoting your books at www. Let's crack on with the episode. [00:00:43] Speaker C: Today's interview is with Annie Kwan on the Finch who Lost Her Wing and we chat about Annie's debut picture book, the Finch who Lost Her Ring and her belief. Kindness starts with being kind to ourselves, practicing kindness to oneself, managing parenting, volunteering, running a business and living life, surprises and challenges of publishing as a debut children's author writing and across different forms and much more. So in my author adventure this week. There's not much to report as I pretty much shared everything I was doing in the Tuesday episode, but I did want to talk about whether if you check in with yourself to see whether you're doing things actively, doing things that make you happy. And I want to talk about things that are outside of the writing sphere. So lately and if you've been listening to the last couple of episodes, I took the month of September off because of burnout and I am going to finish up the podcast at 200 episodes and have the rest of the year off as well and really pulling back on things because I'm listening to my body and whatnot and yeah, I'm just trying to get back into things and do things actively that actually bring me joy outside of, you know, profession and family and all that sort of stuff. Things for me I took this was really for kids, but I'd taken my kids roller skating with their friends the other week. But I actually sometimes I usually just sit there and I used to do work or I used to do other stuff on the computer rather than actually get involved. And I really liked skating and blading. [00:02:15] Speaker A: When I was a kid. [00:02:16] Speaker C: So this time around I actually paid for myself to do it and you. [00:02:20] Speaker A: Know, I did some skating, I stacked. [00:02:22] Speaker C: It and hurt my knee but I. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Had so much fun. [00:02:24] Speaker C: Like I was smiling, going round and really enjoyed it. And I recently went across to Rottnes island for the day with my partner and we were biking and things and just getting outside and doing exercise and stuff, which I'm in Perth, Western Australia. The weather's starting to get nice and allowing us to do these things. So that was just really a conscious effort of taking the time just to get out and enjoy myself. And yeah, we're away with friends over the weekend and really, really looking forward to it now. These are things that I feel like I used to do quite a lot and maybe in the last couple of years things have just, it's just gotten lost, you know. Well, it's been a very, very different difficult few years. But it's just all it just feels like lately it's always first and because of the burnout things have just crept up and kids first and there is fun moments for sure, but actively seeking out and scheduling good times for yourself outside of what you normally do, other hobbies, other just fun dates and things like that. So you feel that joy and enjoyment. [00:03:19] Speaker A: With other things too. [00:03:20] Speaker C: It's something that we do chat with the upcoming episode, the upcoming interview with Annie. You know, we talk about how you can get lost obviously having children and it's very real. It's a very honest and raw chat that's coming. [00:03:41] Speaker B: Thorne Creative where Beautiful Websites for Authors are brought to Life no matter what stage you're at with your writing, your stories deserve a dedicated space to shine. Whether you're just starting out or have a bookshelf full of bestsellers, your website is the hub of your author business. Finding everything you and your books offer together, Thorn Creative can nurture all aspects of redesigning your old site or start afresh from the initial design, they can provide ongoing hosting and maintenance to marketing your books online, saving you time, money and stress trying to wrangle your site yourself. An author website built by Thorne Creative can easily direct readers to your favorite retailers, your publisher, or simply set you up to sell to them direct. The options are endless. Thorn Creative have worked with many authors across all genres and know what goes into good, functional working author websites to sell books. Head on over to thorncreative.comau websitesforauthors to read author and publisher testimonials and to see what they offer and some of the sites they've created. [00:05:08] Speaker A: Annie Kwan is a lawyer who runs a construction company with her husband. She is passionate about teaching kids and volunteers at her daughter's primary ethics program. Annie believes that being kind to others can only start when one is kind to themselves first. The Finch who Lost Her Wing is her first children's book. She's working on more children's books and is also writing a novel. Annie lives in Sydney with her girls husband and two cats. Welcome to the Hybrid Author Podcast. [00:05:34] Speaker D: Annie Hi, Joanne. How are you? [00:05:35] Speaker A: We're thrilled to have you. I'm very excited to chat to you today. But we'll just start from the beginning about how you came to be a writer. [00:05:43] Speaker D: How I came to be a writer. I was told that writers are just people who write, and I've just always loved to write stories or, like, diary entries. And I read a lot as a kid, so I think it went from there. And it makes me happy, but I don't do it enough. But it makes me happy. Yeah. [00:06:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And also, you know, with your children, do you read books to them? Did that sort of spark a story or back to the love of reading and writing as well? [00:06:13] Speaker D: Yeah. So, you know, like, most parents like bedtime stories. Libraries hang out at bookstores. That's how the girls started. And now they're really avid readers. They're passionate about reading. They always have a book. I don't have any video games like Switch or anything like that at home. I think that might force them to read a little bit more. So they're bookworms, which I'm happy about. [00:06:37] Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing. I honestly used to read about five to 10 different books to my kids each night. And, yeah, they don't read. [00:06:45] Speaker D: They don't now. [00:06:46] Speaker A: They don't read it. Oh, no. Yeah. My youngest goes to bed listening to audiobooks, and the eldest has. Even though it's a rule, it's got to be audio that they listen to, going to bed that she's kind of listens to other stories, but they're sort of like YouTube narratives and stuff, which are not that great. But that's what she likes. So who am I to crush on who she likes? So, yes, I would prefer that they were readers, but, no, it didn't translate for me. But that's wonderful that your girls are so now. That's great. Well, we'd love to know about your, you know, your debut picture book, the Finch who Lost Her Wing, and, you know, strong message coming through that your belief is that kindness starts with being kind to ourselves, which, you know, is so lovely and simple. And I think it's just something that we just forget. Can you share with us about the story and about that message? [00:07:32] Speaker D: So it was. It started during COVID spent, like, way too much time with the kids, and they'd be asking for, like, impromptu stories. So I just made up this Finch who Lost her wing, and she has to go on adventure to help three creatures to find it. And I was just, like, mouthing off, and I was like, hopefully that's really quite good. So I just wrote it down on a piece of scrap paper. And then, because we hang out at bookstores a lot, and it was. I think it was kindness month and a lot of kindness books, most of them were about outward kindness. One was like holding an umbrella for another child. And I thought, there's no books about self kindness. And I thought if we focus on outward kindness too much at the expense of self kindness, we might become people pleasers. So I developed this Finch story into it, kind of self developed, but into self kindness as a foundation of being kind to other people so you don't lose or forget yourself. And I think that's something I'm relearning and learning how to say no, learning my own boundaries. The value in the Finch story was as loud for me as it is in the book. [00:08:45] Speaker A: I just feel as you're talking there, maybe you should make an adult's version. Because I just think. And especially a mother's version. As mothers as well, you can kind of put yourself last, can't you? And your identity, especially your role in the family. You know, I know me, if there was, you know, like, a casserole, which sounds ridiculous, but. And I don't even make casseroles. But maybe, like Elizabeth, if there wasn't enough, like, I would go without, because that's the way. I don't know if other people do that, but that's just the role that I think some others take. And with. [00:09:18] Speaker D: Like, for me, I'd get resentful. [00:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:21] Speaker D: But I don't know why. And it's because I haven't been taking care of myself. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:09:26] Speaker D: Before. Or as well as others. And then I'm. I feel unloved or. Or a deficit. And it's up to me to fill that gap. Not for the kids or. Or my husband. So it's like a universal message, limitless by time culture. So I really believe in that, in the message in Finch. And sometimes even when I read it, I get a bit of. They're like, oh, yes, I must remember. [00:09:54] Speaker A: Oh, it's recognizing it, though, as well, because like you said, you get resentful. You're not sure about it. And even though I'm saying, oh, you should make an adult's version, it's nice that the book is a picture book that adults can be sharing with their children, and the message is getting shared all round. Oh, your kids must be really excited about the book as well. [00:10:10] Speaker D: They. They were by now, when I did a reading at Better Red Than Dead, a Bookstore in Newtown. And I think that's like the third or fourth kind of readings we've done. And the younger ones, I'm sick of this. I'm like, yes, I have one book that come with me, so it doesn't. I don't look so lonely. But yeah, they were excited and quietly proud. I kind of inceptioned my younger to dress as finch in book week and I kind of pushed her towards. And that was like a dream, a little dream come true. She did the wing with her dad and held the book. [00:10:46] Speaker A: So it's quite lovely, I think, especially as a children. I wrote in the children's side for a long time, but especially that if a child goes to school, even if it's your own, dressed as one of your characters, I think you've made it. A finch is quite a distinct character. Did that just come to your mind or do you have a connection with the animal, the finch, like the birth of finch? [00:11:06] Speaker D: No. There's a photographer in Sydney called Leyla Jeffries and she photographs birds, beautiful birds. And I saw one either from Instagram of her books, and it was of the Goldie and finch with the blue and the purple. And I was like, like, birds are like flying jewels, the way they're iridescent and the colors. Like even. Even a dirty pigeon has that like purpley reflective. They're actually really beautiful. I think that's how it came about. But definitely inspired by Leila Jeffrey's work. She's amazing. [00:11:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do feel for the little pigeon. They get the stereotype is the flying rat. [00:11:46] Speaker D: Yeah. And the bin chickens. [00:11:48] Speaker A: I think the picture, the. The book series, the. The bin chicken has sort of brought those birds to life, I think, as well. I haven't actually read the series, but yeah. [00:11:58] Speaker D: Yes. And they're in the Bin Chicken books. They're actually regal birds. [00:12:02] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:02] Speaker D: Egyptian times. Yeah. So they're actually very important and not at all a bin chicken. So that was a good twist, I thought, in those photos. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, that's amazing. So, you know, you do so much. When I read your bio, I felt a bit dizzy. You're a mom, you're a wife, you're a children's author, lawyer, construction company director. You do the volunteering. So you have the message of sort of being kind to yourself. Is there things that you do in amongst all these roles to be kind to yourself? Do you recognize now that you need to say no? And what are some of the things that you do to practice kindness to yourself? [00:12:40] Speaker D: I think saying no, definitely there's a lot of school events or social events that I say no to or I cap it at 90 minutes. I realized that. I recently realized that as a person, I have a word count, like a daily word count. So if I speak or listen to more than X words, I start to just kind of fade. [00:13:03] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:04] Speaker D: So I realize, okay, so if I want to go out and do a parents catch up, I'll just do 60 minutes, because anything more is just going to like, reverse, reverse charge me. Like, you know when you do facial masks and they say you can't put it more than X minutes because then it starts to dry your skin? That's how I feel. Like, I start to feel really dry. [00:13:26] Speaker A: The face mask method. [00:13:28] Speaker D: That's how I see it. Just like go for a bit and then come home. Like, be in bed by nine. [00:13:35] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I like that. And it sounds like, you know, you recognize how you're feeling and you obviously know yourself really well. So to actually even have a time limit on it is pretty. [00:13:45] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:13:46] Speaker A: Amazing for sure, that you're aware of that. Yeah. [00:13:49] Speaker D: Yeah. And also I try to tell my friends or school moms I've hit my mark. I'm gonna go now. So I try to be honest about where I am and be open about it instead of like lying or packaging it a different way. [00:14:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And how's that perceived? As. Are people quite. They're quite understanding, like, they get it or. [00:14:13] Speaker D: I think at first it's like, oh, but now they. They like what you pin your word count, but we're going to afters, you know, but like, no, I think now they're used to me and they know that I'm just. I. I hit an introverted point and I need to go home and. And just be quiet. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I've definitely picked up what gives me energy and what sort of sucks it over the years, definitely this podcast and interviewing for me after an interview, I feel quite energized and quite good. But there's been in person speaking events that I've gone to where I still feel energized. I think I do when I'm speaking, but I recently done an interview with somebody in person, my first one. And after it, I felt it. I felt good, but I felt quite drained as well. That was speaking as much. I don't know if I just burned a lot of nervous energy or whatever it was, but I think you can become quite aware, especially in this industry with the events and all that sort of stuff that comes with publishing a book and the expectation of going out and promoting it. Like, you've got to be aware of what. What you can and can't do. I guess in between. [00:15:15] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:15:15] Speaker A: In between parenting and other job commitments and things, it can become a lot. [00:15:20] Speaker D: Yeah, sure. Like being on all the time is a lot. Yeah. And then using up all the on time for work or books and then not leaving much for the kids. I get mum guilt from that. [00:15:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:15:33] Speaker D: Like, it's almost like sometimes I feel I leave the draggy. The draggy parts of myself for the kids after 5pm and because once I said to my kids, I'm so tired, and the younger one is Sassia. She said, but you're always tired. [00:15:48] Speaker A: No, no. Yes. [00:15:50] Speaker D: No, but true. [00:15:52] Speaker A: I think for me, it's getting grumpy and like, you're always mad, like, oh, gosh, really? I'm that snack piggy, you know, because I am tired or whatever. And when I notice that, that's something I'm definitely working on to think, all right, no, I don't want to be that way. Especially, like you said, for the kids, it's not fair. [00:16:07] Speaker D: But then it's like the juggle, the. The struggle. Juggle, struggle. Yeah. Because if you don't do the podcast or the books or whatnot, then it's like shutting down a part of yourself. I call these the hustle years. [00:16:21] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:22] Speaker D: Because we're reparenting ourselves, we're parenting our kids and our parents are aging. So it's got that triple factor where everything is happening at once at this age. So it's definitely time to be kind to ourselves at this juncture. [00:16:37] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm definitely at that crossroads about being kind to myself and peering back and pulling back and just reassessing. And yeah, it's definitely. Something has to give because things are just getting spread too, too thin. But, yeah. Well, since putting out the book, can you tell us, how was publishing adventure and what lessons have you learned that you would pass on to aspiring children's authors? Is there things that has been amazing and other things that you've thought that have just appeared or anything, Feelings or experiences? [00:17:06] Speaker D: There's a lot. Like, I wrote the book maybe four years ago, so I sent the manuscript to a lot of traditional publishers, like the penguins and the HarperCollins, and I was lucky if I get a rejection letter because mostly it was radio silence. One publisher said, we don't either. They mostly say, our suite for the year is full, so we're not taking on any more books. One said, we don't accept RHYMING children's books anymore. The passe or something, and I dropped it. I forgot about it. And I realized, I think I'll do it myself. So I looked into hybrid publishing, which is when they help you with the editing, the illustration, and the printing and the distribution. And then I realized I actually just need an illustrator. I'll do it myself. Yeah, that was a lot of work, and that was a lot of fun. And I found Laura B. She's from New Zealand. I found her from the Small Steps Publishing website, and she has beautiful nature illustrations, and I thought, that's perfect. And she was so fun to work with. She illustrated Finch from my head to something I can see because I can't draw. She's just. It was so fun to work with and giving feedback sometimes from artist to artist. It's hard to navigate how to give criticism or feedback or changes. But we worked together really well, and we said, let's do more books so we can work together again. Because she was really lovely. So that's my. My part. My favorite part was. Is actually working with Laura B. My least favorite part is selling the book. There's like six more boxes in the garage right now. I've sold to everyone I know. Yeah, they're not buying anymore. And. Yeah, so that's a hard part, because marketing, publicity, selling, the time, the skill set. I don't have that. The creativity part is the fun part. The selling is. Is a whole different ball game. So I would love to do. To do traditional publishing next time, if there is a next time, just to see. Just to learn and see what it's like. But it's. It's been really fun. It's been really worthwhile. [00:19:10] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's good. As long as it's like a positive experience going forward and not a negative one. But it is good that you've had the initiative. You put the story out there anyway. It needs to be told. And I think it is really, really powerful. A lot of people talk about creative marketing or whatever, like how you can just be creative in the different marketing things. But it is. It's a hard slog trying to do it all yourself. It really, really. And there's different parts that you can like or love feeling very different. [00:19:35] Speaker D: I think it's like you have all the emotions. You have the excitement, you have the heartbreak. What if they're gonna sit there for the next 10 years? What am I gonna do with another 150 books? Gonna give it all away? [00:19:48] Speaker A: I know. At least with your book, that message is always Important it's always around so you could research that book anytime. So you know, I've got I same as yourself like a couple of, well, more than a couple of boxes of some nonfiction books sitting there and I just wonder whether the content. I think one of them is good but the other sort of short and it's got little business tips and things like that which are still relevant today. But yeah, I just think in my mind I'm just like are these boxes going to sit there forever and then the information's going to go stale. [00:20:18] Speaker D: So what are your books about? Is there a fiction that I see? [00:20:21] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a women's fiction that I write under Masterdunum, Zara Ellen, which is my middle names. That one will be fine because it's fiction. But you can see lore lower down there. The two short fiction books which I put out I think in like 2021 but they're based off lived experience. So I set up shop as a freelance writer after doing my writing degr it was just a realization that freelance writing is not the kind of writing I wanted to do. I thought I could do that writing to earn an income whilst I built like a book business on the side. But then I don't two businesses effectively. So I, I thought, you know, it's not wasted. I've got this knowledge from doing that like a little. It's very short. It's like about 7,000 words and it's a quick tip book about 60 plus quick tips on mindset, rate to pay. I did a talk at a library last week about it. Like business startup success. Yeah, they're just very basic business tips that I found from going out and actually doing it. Someone tried to pay me with shares in their company. I didn't have any clue whether that would be a thing. But the company wasn't even really up and running. They just had all these projected figures and all that sort of stuff. Kind of took it to a business person to say, you know, what do you make of this? And he's like, oh, it's all fine, but the business is not up. So how do you know this happened? And even when I went to meet with my first client, I was like, where do I meet? Do I buy them a coffee? The stuff that comes up. But even things like that. Do people meet anymore with their business people because of COVID Do they meet online now I don't even know if it's relevant. [00:21:44] Speaker D: So it is a bit of both. [00:21:46] Speaker A: But same as yourself. I think we should just both keep putting them out there until the boxes are gone. Yes. [00:21:53] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:21:53] Speaker A: Well, you mentioned maybe working with your illustrator again. [00:21:56] Speaker C: So have you got more children's books. [00:21:57] Speaker A: On the horizon you're thinking of? And you're also doing a novel. [00:22:00] Speaker D: Yes. So I would love to write more children's books because they're so fast. Like a novel is what, 80,000 words and like character arcs, plot lines, three acts. Oh my gosh. A children's book is faster and it's instant gratification almost. I would love to do that. The kids want to write a book about Jasper, a cat who acts like a dog. They want to illustrate and do photography for it. [00:22:29] Speaker A: Wow. [00:22:29] Speaker D: We've been talking about that for a year. I haven't done anything about it. I've just been talking about that I'd love to do a book about grief and envy or jealousy for kids. I'd love to shine a light on those kind of issues. So there's ideas, but I haven't sat down and find the space and time to do it. [00:22:51] Speaker A: That's it, isn't it? I don't know. You've got to carve that sort of time out. And I'm saying not writing at the moment. The podcast is taking center stage as well as everything else. And that. That's eating me up alive. That I need to. This all started from writing in the first place, so I need to get back to that and the love of that. [00:23:07] Speaker D: You have writer's guilt. [00:23:09] Speaker A: Yeah, big time. I really do. They'll be stripping me of the title. But that book, you know, the cat, the cat dog one. Yeah. Just doing that as a project with your children would be absolutely gorgeous, I think, you know, with the photos and stuff is great. Yeah. [00:23:27] Speaker D: I like, I don't need to publish it or I'll just do it as a thing. Yeah. And then I think, am I just a one hit wonder? I'll just do one. One book. Like all these kind of insecurities and doubts and procrastination. They're all live. [00:23:43] Speaker A: Oh, it's definitely a real thing. The other book that I wrote, the nonfiction one, is called Author Fears and How to Overcome Them. Because it's again, all the internal and external sort of fears and doubts that have. I've dealt with and have arisen since, you know, becoming an author and putting yourself out there and all that sort of stuff that you're not aware of until you do these things. Because. Yeah, you just, you've never done them before. I think I'm at a point where it's just Take the pressure off, you know, take the pressure off. Get back to the love of it and. And do it at your own pace when you can. You know, I've put so much time and effort into this. It has to earn me money. It has to be a business. And. Yeah, no, it's just taking me further and further away from where I want to be. So. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Stay true to yourself and what you want to do. And it sounds like you've got some great ideas as well there. You should just sit down, have a doodle, have a fun. [00:24:32] Speaker D: Yeah, just pen and paper and just. Yeah, just remove, like you say, remove that pressure of excellence or achievement or outcome and just write for the relaxed joy of it. [00:24:46] Speaker A: It's very difficult, though, because once you've published, once you're in that sort of mindset, hard to switch that brain off to be right. Who's this for? How do I look? Like all the. The rules and the structure is pretty. Yeah. And I almost fine with sitting down with a pen and paper. Free flow. I end up going into rhyme and it really annoys me. I'm like, I'm not a poet. I'm not a rapper. Why am I rhyming here? [00:25:10] Speaker D: Maybe you are not the poet. [00:25:12] Speaker A: No, I know it annoys me. Maybe there's nothing else to say apart from that. [00:25:16] Speaker C: But. [00:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah, rhyming picture books. I love rhyming picture books, but I have heard same. Yeah. I have heard that they're extremely difficult to get published. I can't remember the reason why. And also one, a publisher that I'd spoke to had said that to do the translations into different languages with rhyming picture books. Doesn't sound the same or it's not the same. Yeah. They're not dying. No way at all. [00:25:38] Speaker D: It's just a blanket no to rhyming. Sounds of offensive to me. [00:25:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And still getting made. But I think it's from the high selling names or whatnot. So. Yeah, become one of them. And then you'll get a write me a book. [00:25:51] Speaker D: Then you have to hit the US market because that's where all the sales are. [00:25:55] Speaker A: That's it. Well, do you have any other advice, Annie, you want to share either about writing or publishing or just being a mother, staying head above water or being kind to yourself. [00:26:04] Speaker D: Oh, my gosh, that's a lot, I guess with writing. With writing. I joined a writer studio a few years ago and the first course was four weeks unlocking creativity. And all I took away was let yourself write junk. Let yourself write junk. And it doesn't need to be perfect. Just get it out. And I think that still stands for me. Just sit down. Like, it doesn't need to be a bestseller. The moment you put a first draft in, there's a huge jump in mindset. Just let yourself write junk and sit down and do it. Yeah, I'm still learning, like, because I don't sit down sometimes I'll avoid myself as a writer and start cleaning rather than writing. I don't know what's happening there. But yeah, just sit down and write. [00:26:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:26:50] Speaker D: As a mother juggling, I think say no to more things, get everyone to help out a bit more, go to bed early. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, that's a wonderful advice. And even what you were saying about, you know, I'm going to call it the face mask method, Annie Kwan's face method. Even. All that is extremely helpful to take on just even an awareness, isn't it, of, of things and putting yourself first. Now that's all excellent. Well, thank you so much, Annie. It's been absolutely wonderful. [00:27:18] Speaker D: Thank you. [00:27:19] Speaker A: Can you share? [00:27:19] Speaker D: Nice to meet you. [00:27:20] Speaker A: Yeah, you too. And I know our audience would love to know where can they buy, you know, the finch who lost her wing and see everything you do on and offline. [00:27:29] Speaker D: Oh, really easy. Annie kwan.com. you can buy the book there. And my Instagram is Annik writer. And that's where you'll find the book and find me peddling the same book. Another one? [00:27:43] Speaker A: No, there's another one. Fantastic. [00:27:45] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:27:46] Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing. Well, thanks again, Annie. [00:27:49] Speaker D: Thank you so much. And good luck with your books as well. [00:27:58] Speaker C: So there you have it, folks, the truly inspiring Annie Kwan. Next time on the Hybrid Author podcast, we have writing Pulse Pounding thrillers with Michael Windross. Michael Wendorf is a marketing consultant and now a debut author with his thriller what Goes Around. It was published by Bloomsbury in the uk, USA and Australia and foreign translation rights were sold in Japan in Japanese, Hungarian and Italian. It is available in hardcover, audiobook and ebook. And the paperback edition launches this month. Fabulous interview coming up with Michael. I wish you well in your author adventure this next week. That's it from me. Bye for now. [00:28:31] Speaker A: That's the end for now, authors. I hope you are further forward in your author adventure after listening and I hope you'll listen next time. [00:28:37] Speaker B: Remember to head on over to the Hybrid Author website at www.hybridauthor.com to get your free author pass. [00:28:46] Speaker A: It's bye for now.