Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello authors.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: I'm Joanne Morel, children's and young adult fiction writer and author of short non fiction for authors. Thanks for joining me for the hybrid Author podcast, sharing interviews from industry professionals to help you board your career as a hybrid author, both independently and traditionally publishing your books. You can get the show notes for each episode and sign up for your free author pass over at the hybrid author website to discover your writing process. Get tips on how to publish productively and get comfortable promoting your books at www.hybridauthor.com dot au let's crack on with the episode.
[00:00:41] Speaker C: Abba L. King is an australian author of indian and irish descent. She's a children's author and short story writer who believes passionately in the power of stories to make the world a better place. Her books for children include Claire Malone changes the World, an empowering and inspiring picture book for young children, the Lost Smile, a picture book with themes of cultural diversity and emotional intelligence, and Jenna's Truth, a young adult novella telling a raw and real tale of cyberbullying. Nadia's short stories have been published in Australia and internationally. She is the winner of the 2020 inaugural Maureen Freer Literary Competition for the short story category, and in 2019 she was awarded the Stuart Haddo Short Story Prize. Nadia is currently undertaking postgraduate studies in English and creative writing. She lives in Western Australia with her family and an ever expanding collection of.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: Books which we can see behind her. Welcome Nadia.
Hi jo, thanks for being on the show.
[00:01:45] Speaker C: Your judging experience is extensive. You have been a judge for the Trinity College's brother Jerry Faulkner writing competition, the Tim Winton Young Writers award for the upper primary category, just write for kids 2020 pitch it competition in the junior fiction and Young Adult category, Golden Pen Award for Scribblers Festival, the City of Belmont's read out loud awards, primary school children and a judge for writing for Life junior writing competition or donate life, and your very first judging experience for the Ruby award run by the Romance Writers of Australia.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Wow, I didn't even realize I'd done all that.
It's quite a list when you read.
[00:02:27] Speaker C: It out there, and that's a span over from your first judging experience in 2016 to now 2020. That's no mean feat. Is this something you saw after early in your writing career, or have organisations approached you to become a judge?
[00:02:43] Speaker A: The Ruby award I must have seen something and I put my hand up because I was writing romance at the time and I thought it would be a great way to learn how to do it. So I did that for a couple of years then I obviously changed to children's literature, and I don't know, I haven't consciously sought it out. But I think if you're interested in children's writing and literacy, maybe it's something you just, you know, naturally gravitate towards. But it certainly, like, I was so.
[00:03:18] Speaker D: Surprised when you read out the list.
[00:03:19] Speaker E: Because.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Wasn'T something that I will judge. Writing competitions, go, you know, like, yeah, it just kind of happened naturally.
[00:03:29] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:03:29] Speaker C: Which is awesome. I mean, when you've seen, you said you kind of saw the opportunity for the romance writers. One was that just did it. Advertise it on their websites and things, or how do the opportunities come back?
[00:03:40] Speaker A: It might have been. I feel like it might have been like a LinkedIn thing or definitely social media.
[00:03:46] Speaker D: Like, never discount social media for finding, you know, finding out about opportunities.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: So I must have seen something. And I only went on as a read. I didn't go on, you know, I was so at arm's length from the process.
[00:03:58] Speaker D: I was really just as a reader.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: Because readers are just as good at. Well, I think they're probably better at judging whether or not a story works. Yeah. Yeah. You know, someone who's trying to learn the craft, so. Yeah, it was just a really. Yeah. Very interesting that you.
It looks as if I've, like, you know, tried to do it when it's just sort of.
[00:04:20] Speaker C: Yeah, no, well, I did wonder. So when you're kind of applying and things like that, do you. You have to state, like, what kind of books you read? And are they looking for that specifically?
[00:04:30] Speaker D: Are they looking for specific qualities?
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Probably.
I don't think that they're. I don't think that it's an application kind of thing.
[00:04:39] Speaker D: I think the Ruby award specifically was for a reader.
Yeah.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:04:45] Speaker D: That was an expression of interest.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: So I kind of think there's either an expression of interest or you're invited. So for the Tim Winton award, which.
[00:04:54] Speaker D: I'm, like, dead chuffed to be involved.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: With, that was an expression of interest that. That went out to a librarian email group that I'm on. So that's how I found out about that. And I was pretty quick, you know.
[00:05:06] Speaker D: Like, I saw it and I was like, drop everything.
[00:05:08] Speaker C: I would love to do that.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: You know, I just want to be close to Tim Rington.
And then for the golden pen, I was just, like, incredibly fortunate to have.
[00:05:19] Speaker D: I'd done work for scribbling festival, and.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: So then they asked me if I.
[00:05:24] Speaker D: Would be one of the judges, but.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: I kind of think that the industry standard is invitation, because I don't think you often don't know who. Because I submit for a lot of short story writing competitions and often you won't know who the judge is. It's not like an advertised thing. It's like, I guess it protects the judges.
[00:05:43] Speaker D: You don't know who they are.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: I mean, and then also there are huge, you know, big competitions where everyone.
[00:05:47] Speaker D: Knows who the judges are, but, and.
[00:05:50] Speaker C: With them part of the panel for each individual one. Do the organisations kind of coach you on how to be a judge or what to look for? Is there kind of set rules that you're supposed to be following when judging.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: The submission terms and condition conditions for every competition. And often, like, you'll hear a judge give their judging report and they'll say, we had to discount or whatever that word is, where you. Where someone, you know, we had to not use. We had like, there was a bunch of stories which we couldn't count because.
[00:06:27] Speaker D: They didn't make the terms and conditions.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: Which as a writer is really interesting because that's what you have to do for a publisher, right. Or any submission, you need to set it out the way they want it. So I think it's a good way for new, for emerging writers, you know, follow the terms and conditions, don't do all the work and, and then have your name on it if they don't, you know, because usually submissions are judged blind. So. Yeah, so I think that that's one thing that you need to be aware.
[00:06:59] Speaker D: Of, is the terms and conditions.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: But for judges, usually you're not coached, but there is like particular selection criteria for each or maybe a marking criteria is a better, a better word, I guess. And so, like, the way I approach it is I kind of approach it almost like a teacher, I guess, like I assign. So I break down each, you know, criteria and then I assign numerical values. I might weight, you know, one higher.
[00:07:31] Speaker D: Than the other and then.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of. But I'm always looking for the wow, the wow factor. But late last year, it was interesting that you asked this question because late last year I went to a high school that has a writing group and the librarian specifically asked me to talk about what are the kinds of things.
[00:07:51] Speaker D: Judges are looking for.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: So I prepared a sheet. Oh, wicked. So I kind of got a list of what generally what you would want to sort of tick off if you were submitting a story. So you want a well executed story that meets competition guidelines but also has a clear beginning, a middle and an end. I particularly look for clarity of ideas and a satisfactory resolution.
[00:08:16] Speaker D: Like you want to finish the story.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: And go, yes, that was good. I also look for strong, authentic and distinctive voices.
Writing rather than shows rather than tells. That's kind of like one of my pet peeves.
Uncommon genres and settings. You know, it's really good to see something that's different.
Well edited writing, obviously, and a balance, sort of that balance between light and shade, but also a balance between dialogue, setting and action. But I reckon at the end of the day, judges are just like readers. So we're looking for originality and creativity, and then we want stories that will surprise and delight an entertainer. So we want to be, wow. Just like any reader does.
[00:09:03] Speaker C: Yeah, of course. They're fantastic. Thank you. Do you obviously have to read every single submission, even if you're kind of getting halfway through and being like, oh, my gosh, you know, some people haven't adhered to that list you've just provided there. Just reading each submission once, you don't.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: Go over it twice for the first cut because, say, for something like the Tim Winton award, I would have like 100 entries. So each. So in my.
[00:09:30] Speaker D: So this is how many we have.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: So I think there's about five or.
[00:09:33] Speaker D: Six judges in the upper primary category.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: And we all have about 100 entries. Wow. And then we cull that list to a short list. And then as a group, we then.
[00:09:44] Speaker D: Make decisions on what we'll put forward.
[00:09:46] Speaker A: To the entire panel as our winners.
[00:09:50] Speaker C: How long have you got to make that cull? How much time do you have for the judging?
[00:09:55] Speaker A: It's usually pretty tight. It's usually a couple of weeks.
[00:09:58] Speaker E: So.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: And I was thinking about this. I actually do spend quite a few weeks a year just doing nudging. And, like, the Tim Winton one is particularly time consuming because of the, because it's been running for over 20 years. It's this streamlined. You know, it's such a great, it's such a really good, thorough process. And so this, you know, we have so much time to look at our individual pile and then it goes to our group, and then we have so much time for that. And then we meet twice. I think we meet twice. All 19 judges meet twice during that process. So it's like, it's, it gives you, it gives you confidence, but you need.
[00:10:43] Speaker E: To be quite, you need to be.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Quite cluey, I think because, like, last year, you know, there was something that seemed quite familiar, you know, and so you want to, you want to make sure that there's no. You have to sign a form to.
[00:10:56] Speaker D: Say you've not plagiarized when you submit.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: But you also want to be as a judge, you have to be quite cluey as to what is out there.
[00:11:04] Speaker D: And, you know, is there a story that is really close to a published piece of work?
[00:11:09] Speaker A: And, yeah, it's quite that. That's the worry, I guess, that something we love slips through.
[00:11:18] Speaker C: Have you heard of that happening before in any judging or anything?
[00:11:22] Speaker A: I don't think it would be anything.
[00:11:23] Speaker D: We would talk about, but I think.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: It would be a pressure that all judges would have. And I guess it's quite easy to pick up on plagiarism nowadays because with the Internet, you could literally type out a passage. You know, if there was a passage.
[00:11:36] Speaker D: That you were particularly concerned about, you could throw it into Google and you'd probably find if it was plagiarised.
[00:11:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:43] Speaker C: Like the submitting the uni documents that.
[00:11:45] Speaker D: You put through, what's that called?
[00:11:47] Speaker C: And that finds out whether you please try and sit up.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: But at the same time, though, some of the stuff is just so, you know, like, these are kids that I'm involved with judging their writing and some of them are so well executed that you're just blown away. They're just so good.
[00:12:09] Speaker E: Yeah. Well, that's good.
[00:12:10] Speaker C: Well, good time to ask then. Has a specific submission or submissions inspired you to write a certain piece of writing for your own? You know, you've read a submission and that's kind of giving you such inspiration to maybe go off and create something of your own?
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Not particularly.
[00:12:28] Speaker E: And I think I would be particularly.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: Careful as well that I wasn't influenced by somebody else's work. I think I almost turn on a different brain when I'm doing that, so I'm not. But what it has done is by reading, like, the quality of the submissions is just so high, especially for like, the golden.
[00:12:47] Speaker D: Something like the golden pen or Scribblers festival is.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: It's just made me really, really optimistic about our future authors and it's kind of thrilling to think that I could be reading something that will be, you know, that kid is going to go on and be one of Australia's best writers, you know, and I was there at the beginning, so I kind of love, love that idea that, you know, what we're seeing is just so, so amazing. Like, the girl who won the Tim Winton award last year was a year nine student called Caroline and her, her story was like, it was just so good. I'll send you the link. It was just so good. And not only did it take out the overall winner.
Like, it took out a couple of other, like, she won three awards and keeping in mind that we judge up to year twelve, you know, this is a year nine student and she took out three awards. That's how good the story was.
[00:13:46] Speaker C: Wow, that sounds amazing.
Gosh, yeah, I'd love to read that. So definitely share.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: So what is the best and worst.
[00:13:54] Speaker C: Part of judging have you found over the years?
[00:13:57] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Well, the worst is a handwritten, scrawly write.
That would be me.
I'm like, no, it's so hard. I really like clean, you know, neatly typed, hopefully with, you know, not too many grammatical errors.
[00:14:15] Speaker E: That's.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: But like, I think I mentioned. I just mentioned it before, really.
[00:14:19] Speaker D: The best part is reading is so.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: Amazing that your mind is completely blown. And especially for, like, the Tim Winton award. I know I'm going on about that.
[00:14:27] Speaker D: Award, but that one's a good one.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Tim Winton goes to every award ceremony to see those kids. Some of them, it's like they're tiny, teeny, tiny year ones, and they get up on stage and he is. Tim Winton is so wonderful with them.
[00:14:44] Speaker D: You know, like, he bends down and.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: He has a quiet word with each writer. You just kind of want to say to them, oh, am I going to stop time and pay attention? Because this is, you know, this is really special. So I love being able to go to those awards nights.
[00:14:59] Speaker D: Any award ceremonies are awesome. Just to see, you know, to see.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: The hard work be rewarded is, you know, really special.
[00:15:06] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Speaker C: Especially for kids as well.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's lovely.
[00:15:09] Speaker C: It'd be exciting for them and the parents.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Is there any specific competitions that you.
[00:15:14] Speaker C: Aspire to judge in not just Australia, but worldwide?
[00:15:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I haven't really thought about this. Yeah, it hasn't been a strategic thing.
I hadn't really aspired. I didn't really think there was a future, really. But I guess the Stella Prize would be really cool to be involved in. So that's like, if people don't know what that is. That was founded in 2012, so not that long ago. And it's a particular prize that celebrates not only australian women's writing, but also diversity and perspective. There are two things that I feel quite passionate about. So it would actually be really cool to be involved in the judging, but.
[00:15:54] Speaker D: I also think it would be a.
[00:15:55] Speaker C: Lot of hard work.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: You know, you have to read a ton of books and. And it's public.
[00:16:00] Speaker D: It's very public, you know, like, for you too.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: But, yeah, I think that would be pretty thrilling.
[00:16:07] Speaker D: To be involved with something like that.
[00:16:09] Speaker C: So you've obviously mentioned before, like, the judging can take up some of your time and things like that. So I would assume for the Tim Winton, are you being paid for your time there?
[00:16:19] Speaker A: No, that's actually voluntary.
[00:16:21] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: And I hope I do that for like, 20 years.
It would be rare that you would.
[00:16:29] Speaker D: Be fully financially compensated for your time.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Because at this very time, you know, it's pretty intense. It's a big commitment. But you may get like an honorary payment that will sweeten the deal thing. But, yeah, generally you're not fully financially compensated, but for something. But the thing is that every, most people that are involved are really passionate about children's writing and literacy. And so the bonus is, okay, you may not be getting paid for your, you know, completely for all your time, but you are getting to spend time.
[00:17:00] Speaker D: With people that have the same passion as you.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: And you, I think you're adding something to the community.
[00:17:04] Speaker D: So I think the rewards are more than.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: More than monetary. Oh, I was going to ask you.
[00:17:09] Speaker C: How, you know, how the judging, the competitions have helped your author or writing career, but I suppose it's through networking and meeting, you know, like minded people.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely.
[00:17:21] Speaker E: And I don't, I don't really think.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: That it has helped.
It may have slightly raised my profile, but it's not like schools are hammering all my jaws and going, oh, you're a Tim Winton, George, please come.
[00:17:32] Speaker C: Yeah, but even still, like, even the children who enter the competitions, you know, they would maybe see your name as a judge and, and look up your work and even some of the schools that you have been a judge for, you know, they might stop your book in the libraries.
[00:17:47] Speaker D: Well, hopefully they do any regardless, but maybe.
[00:17:54] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:17:55] Speaker C: So it's judging something you would recommend to other writers and authors to undertake in their career at least once?
[00:18:01] Speaker A: No, I think anything with writing is if you enjoy it, do it right. Like, so if. If reading a hundred entries, kids entries, is not something that you want to do, don't do it. Like, do something that you enjoy. But if it is something that you enjoy, then keep your eyes open because, I mean, surely, like me, you will see opportunities and you can go for it. But I really think. Yeah, go in, go in almost with.
[00:18:27] Speaker D: An open heart, if that's what you want to do.
[00:18:29] Speaker C: I was going to also ask you about what advice you would share with authorities, writers who might want to achieve becoming a judge on the panel one day, but I feel like you've probably touched on that sharing, like, the list of, you know, when you're submitting and things like do's and don'ts, I guess.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: Another good skill for a judge, but I think if you're kind of an active reader, you would have it anyway, is reading actively, you know, and critically and being reflective in your reading, which if you, if you want to write, then they're all things that you should try and practice anyway, so. But I think that's the, they're the kind of skills that make you.
Make you a better judge. And I can certainly improve in that area. But, yeah, I think it's something to.
[00:19:14] Speaker D: Aspire to, that reading reflectively.
[00:19:16] Speaker C: So many more years of judging for.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: You to come, hopefully on the tin Minton. Yeah.
[00:19:23] Speaker C: Or the stellar.
That's great. You're currently traditionally published for all three of your books. Have you ever considered independently publishing at any stage in your career?
[00:19:34] Speaker A: I haven't considered it up until now. I know how much work it is to independently publish. I just don't have the time to commit to that. But I would never say never, like. And I think there's certainly room in.
[00:19:49] Speaker D: The industry for traditional.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: And I mean, and I'm not with the big five, I'm just with us, I'm with a small press. So I think we need diversity in everything and in who's publishing is.
[00:20:01] Speaker D: I think it's important to have diversity as well.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: So I would never say never, but I just, at the moment, I just couldn't. I don't know how much work it is and I just.
I haven't got the time.
[00:20:14] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:20:15] Speaker C: So you're currently published with Dixie books.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: Or the lost Mail. How is that going?
[00:20:21] Speaker C: Is that all coming together?
[00:20:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm launching at Subiaco library, which.
[00:20:26] Speaker D: I know you've been.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: You went to my launch, jo, and they just do such a fantastic job. Like, it will just. It will be a dream. We're lucky because, you know, with COVID times, we're still able to have an.
[00:20:37] Speaker D: In person launch, which is really good.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: But the numbers are capped and be social distancing and it won't be as free and easy as the Clare Malone book launch, I would think.
[00:20:46] Speaker D: But, yeah, it'll be really.
[00:20:48] Speaker A: I'm really looking forward. I'm really looking forward to it. I love celebrating, you know?
[00:20:53] Speaker C: Yeah, you have to, I think your hard work. How has your experience been with Dixie Publishing?
[00:20:58] Speaker A: Dixie books as a traditional publisher? Yeah, Dixie Books. Dixie books are great.
They take a different view, I guess, to an australian publisher because they're looking more at a global market.
[00:21:11] Speaker C: Are they based in London?
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Yeah, they're based in London. So they're in lockdown at the moment.
[00:21:15] Speaker E: Bless.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: And still working really hard. So. Yeah, totally take my hat off to them. But yeah, because one of the things that I really love about working with small press and this is the third.
[00:21:26] Speaker D: Small press that I've worked with, is.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: That sense of collaboration and teamwork and, you know, you get to have. So for the lost Mile, I had so much input into the illustrations and into the COVID and that is kind.
[00:21:44] Speaker D: Of not the industry standard if you're with a really big publisher.
[00:21:46] Speaker A: So the fact that I'm able to, you know, have input is really. Is really lovely, I think.
[00:21:52] Speaker D: So that's the advantage to working with a small press.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: Yeah, we're very excited.
[00:21:57] Speaker C: Can't wait to read it when it comes out.
[00:21:59] Speaker D: So, yeah.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: Would you like to share where people.
[00:22:02] Speaker C: Can find you online and follow you.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: And where buy your books?
[00:22:06] Speaker E: Hi.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah, so if you're in WA or Perth west books in Bearswood carries all my books and also paperbird books and Fremantle, which is a brilliant children's store. I know a lot of people are sort of. I like to buy online as well.
[00:22:23] Speaker D: As support independent bookstores.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: So there's free postage available from book depository and also Blackwell's in the UK. So obviously with the UK publisher, they're good outlets for me. And online in Australia, there's booktopia and.
[00:22:39] Speaker D: Amazon Australia as well.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: So you definitely be able to get.
[00:22:42] Speaker D: A copy if you're interested.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: And my webpage is Nadia Lking. So.
[00:22:49] Speaker D: Nadia.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: And I've got all my social media links on there, but I'm very active on Instagram, probably not on anything else. So come find me on Instagram if.
[00:23:01] Speaker D: You want to say hi.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: Fantastic.
[00:23:04] Speaker C: Thank you so much, Nadia. It was wonderful talking to you.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: Lots of. Lots of judging tips there.
[00:23:09] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Thanks so much, Stu.
[00:23:11] Speaker E: It's been great.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: That's the end for now.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: Authors, I hope you're further forward in your author adventure after listening, and I hope you'll listen next time. Remember to head on over to the hybrid author website at www. Dot hybrid author Au to get your free author pass. It's bye for now.
