[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello authors. I'm Joanne Morel, children's and young adult fiction writer and author of short nonfiction for authors. Thanks for joining me for the hybrid author podcast, sharing interviews from industry professionals to help you forge a career as a hybrid author, both independently and traditionally publishing your books. You can get the show notes for each episode and sign up for your free author pass over at the hybrid author website to discover your writing process, get tips on how to publish productively, and get comfortable promoting your books at www. Dot.
Let's crack on with the episode.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Hello authors. I hope you're all keeping well in whatever part of the world you reside and listen to the podcast in. Today's interview is with author and screenwriter Les Zig, and we are chatting about setting up as a micro publisher through print on demand p o d.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: So.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: In my other adventure this week, it's been a busy week of lots of meetings.
Had a meeting with a VA. Still trying to sort of outsource some work, which is not really going to plan, but yeah, so I'm going to figure out whether I'll just end up doing the work or, you know, by the time I actually find somebody or get around to finding somebody might be quicker just to do it myself. I have also been quite productive, not so much with word count or anything like that, but with this women's fiction project that I am moving forward with doing the Kickstarter for. So if you've not been listening to the podcast, I am going to be doing a Kickstarter. There'll be more details to follow shortly on that, so keep your eye ready for that. The work is already written and it has been professionally edited. It's been now professionally proofread. I have had I'm moving forward with the COVID local artist and he sent me a mock up of it today and it's absolutely amazing. So that's going ahead with the Kickstarter. You offer tiers as incentives for backers and you can give away swag with the book, like different things. And I've got a big idea for this. So I've been visiting wholesalers and other people that is involved in the process to see if my big idea can come to life. So there'll be more on that as well. Very excited about this. And so that's really taken a lot of my time. In between, my personal life's been flying off the handle this week, and that's really required my attention, as children do. And so that's where my main focus has been this week. But in between all that, I have filled it with book business stuff where I can, and I have written some of the YA fiction book that I'm writing, but for the most part I've had to put that down to focus on this women's fiction project. And with Rottnest writers retreat looming in June, you know, I wanted to have the full manuscript finished by then, but we'll see.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: We will see.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: If not, it's that's what rottenness writers retreat's there for. My critique stuff's in, all the other stuff is kind of done so I can pretty much work on that book while I'm there. It's really important to probably get most of this Kickstarter stuff aligned before I go. It's all about finding hierarchy of work projects and obviously executing them. So so if you love the podcast or any of the episodes has helped you further in your author career, you can now pay it forward by buying me a coffee
[email protected] thehybridauthor let's all support each other.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: Lesig has worked in publishing for the last 15 years, specialising in structural editing and self publishing. He is the author of this published by Midnight Sun, Prudence ECG Press, August Falling Pantera Press, and just another week in suburbia. Also Pantiera Press and Pride busy bird Publishing. His stories focus on characters facing adversity, trying to find their place in the world. He's had four screenplays, optioned and unproduced screenplays, place and shortlist in over 100 competitions. His stories and articles have been published in various print and digital journals, and he also runs workshops on writing, editing and publishing. Welcome to the hybrid author podcast, Les.
[00:04:39] Speaker C: Thanks for having me on, Joe.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Oh, we're thrilled to have you. So we'll just get started. How did you come to have this amazing career in writing and publishing?
[00:04:48] Speaker C: I've loved writing since I was a kid. The story I always tell is I read Lord of the Rings when I was 1112 and wasn't just a story, it was the depth of the world. Building just overawed me, you know, everywhere they went, geography had history, all these characters had this amazing lineage. So I was just so overwhelmed that one person could do this and I really wanted to get into writing myself. So when I was 15, I hand wrote my first fantasy novel, which I'm sure would be awful.
But ever since, you know, everything I've done has been geared towards telling stories.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: That's right. And you've obviously got a lot of books out there and screenplays. You've got that storytelling aspect, I guess, that the format doesn't seem to hold you back.
[00:05:31] Speaker C: I find, like, for myself, sitting down to write is the one time I really feel meditative and, you know, feel like I'm doing what I'm meant to do. I. Sorry, it makes me sound terrible, but I don't really get that anywhere else in life. You sort of get a purpose out of creating these worlds and telling these stories. So issues that come with that. But, you know, the actual act of telling a story, it's something I've just always loved.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: No, it's nice to hear because, you know, a lot of people talk about the hardships of writing and things like that, and sometimes the conversations are. We often forget the joy. So why are you doing it? Well, because. Yeah, we love it as well.
[00:06:06] Speaker C: I mean, it can be frustrating trying to get somewhere. You know, there's dead ends and things aren't working, but when you start to see it coming together and all that, it's just so gratifying.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, what came first for you? The novels or the screenplays?
[00:06:16] Speaker C: No, no, the novels. So in year nine English, I wrote epic short stories, and I'm sure the teachers didn't read, so I blame them. Yeah. So, like I said, I hand wrote my first novel when I was 1516, and then I did that on the typewriter, and I did it on a computer. And I grew up in the nineties, so this is before home computers were, you know, a household necessity. So back then, no one had a home computer with a word processor that are all sort of gaming computers. Yeah, I started by hand, and I went to typewriter, and then PCs just started to come in, and I jumped to a pc.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Amazing. And have you ever ventured over to dictating yet?
[00:06:54] Speaker C: No, no. I find, like, a. For myself, a connection between, you know, sitting there and fingers on the keys. I don't know if I could actually have the discipline to dictate a story. There's a lot of false starts in mind, a lot of sort of going in one direction, realizing that's not the direction to go, and then coming back and deleting and then revising. And so I don't think I'd have that freedom if I was dictating.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: Well, you said you're a podcaster. I think, you know, you'd be surprised how much you could probably talk out.
[00:07:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I might try it one day, but, yeah, for now, I'm just happy to sit there and pipe. Yeah, I think I talk enough during.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: The day, so, yeah, not fair enough. And your screenplays, I'm very interested to know, are you part of. You're obviously part of different industries. How did that all come about?
[00:07:37] Speaker C: Screenwriting was just because I was studying drama and acting in my early twenties and director there, and I asked him if he'd be interested in seeing a screenplay, and he said if I put it in his hand, he'd read it. At that stage, I'd never ever written the screenplay. And this is back in about 90, 91. So no Internet or pre, you know, Internet's popularity and all that. So I actually had to go to library and find a book about screenwriting, which I didn't do. I couldn't find one. I found one on playwriting and I just bastardized that format and just started writing. And he didn't like, didn't like the actual story, but he liked my writing and he, he asked me to write a feature screenplay for him. He commissioned me to do it. Didn't go anywhere, which is more my fault, because back when I was 2021, I had all the answers.
[00:08:19] Speaker A: We all, didn't. We all.
[00:08:21] Speaker C: I took the story and direction, probably went a little bit, went a lot away from his vision, but ever since that, I've kept a foot in that industry, trying to get something up and going in that one. But I mean, like any creative industries, it's just really hard, particularly in Australia, which is such a small industry and so impoverished in terms of the arts. But if it's just something I still do on the side.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Amazing. Yeah, definitely an interest of mine and something that I am hoping to dip my feet into a bit more. I actually went to an event, I think it was about a week ago, and I didn't even know this place existed in Perth. And it was a studio space, which was like the first of. First of its kind, but in Perth anyway. And it's kind of. It's like a little cinema, but it's like a presenting room. And they did a presentation sort of on book to film, and it was like the adaptation and a chat. And I was in this place was fantastic. And I thought, this is. I wrote, I met a guy who'd worked on writing for neighbors for 20 years, and I just thought, oh, this is where I need to be and around people who have sort of done this industry thing.
[00:09:19] Speaker C: So it's interesting because the different formats have different narrative requirements. I mean, film, television, it's a visual, it's a visual art form. So in a book, I can have a character sitting in a chair, just thinking for four pages in a film, that would really be boring. So you have to think about the way stories communicating to suit each medium.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a little bit at uni with the screenplays and stuff like that, but with the sort of screenwriting and things. But, yeah, it's interesting to see what is included from the book to the film and why they sort of chose that or they didn't. And. Yeah, no, no, I find it really interesting. But today's topic is on setting up as a micropublisher through pod print on demand. So first up, we'll just get you to define what this actually means. You know, some listeners might not understand what a micro publisher is or print on demand.
[00:10:10] Speaker C: Okay, so we'll start with print on demand. I mean, years ago, if you wanted to print a book, you'd go to an offset printer. You'd need to print a bulk amount, at least 100, to make you worth your while, because the more you printed, the more each unit cost came down. So if you printed 100, it might be $10 per book. If you print 500, it might be $9.50 per book and so on. You know, you couldn't just do 20. If you're doing 20, you're probably going to get charged like $80 per book or something to print it. Print on demand has been there for a while, but it's really coming to Vogue since about 2016. 2017. There are the two main platforms, which are Ingramspark and also Amazon's Kindle direct publishing, both american companies, but they both have facilities all around the world. And the way it works is, you know, you upload your print files, so there's a cover and an internals. And through these platforms, you can actually set it up to distribute to online retailers like Amazon, booktopia, Barnes and Noble, those sort of places. So it'll appear in their catalogs. It just is a digital listing, but it'll appear in their catalogs. And, you know, if you see a book on Amazon that you like, you order it. The order is then relayed back to the print on demand facility. They print out that single copy for the person and it's shipped off to the purchaser. Now, if you want to buy books for yourself, you just go into your account and you order them as required. So you can order them, you can order one, you can order ten, you can order 100. I mean, as the name suggests, you print them as the demand requires them. So it just means that you don't have to go for really big print runs. You know, first up, you don't end up with boxes of books, you know, in your home, which I know a lot of authors in the past have done. And it gives you global representation through all these online retail platforms. And these platforms too, when you set up distribute for them, you actually set up the pricing for your book. So you're not paying anything in this regard. Like if someone buys a book, they're paying whatever price you've set, and then whatever price the retailers finalized. I mean, it's usually around what you said, and then all the costing is taken out of that. It's, you know, the cost of the sale for the platform. They'll take something as a commission, and then the cost of the print and demand facility to actually print it, produce it and ship it out, they'll all take that out of the pricing, so you're not actually paying anything, and whatever's left over goes to you.
[00:12:12] Speaker A: Amazing. It's definitely been a game changer for the publishing industry, and I myself use it, and it's fantastic. Fantastic. I feel for anybody listening, hearing all that for the first time, probably feels a bit daunting with it. But if they've got aspirations to be a micro publisher, you know, what, what are some of the skill sets that they would have to, authors might have to have to go about executing everything you just said there, you know, effectively.
[00:12:37] Speaker C: Okay, I'll say theoretically, you could do all this for nothing. Now, I wouldn't recommend that, because when I'm saying theoretically, you could do it for nothing. That's if you did your own editing and all that sort of stuff. Totally advocate you should get edited, get your book edited and get an editor to do it. Don't get, you know, we get a lot of part time editors, and it should get, you know, people coming, going, look, I don't need it edited. My neighbor edited it and he's a year ten english teacher. You know, we get a lot of these sort of people who might have, you know, background in English, but they're not actual editors, so that don't really sort of know how books should be edited, but totally get it professionally edited, you know, cover design. If you're good at graphic art and all that sort of stuff, then you can do it, but, you know, you'd be needing someone to do that. There'd be administration, like the ISBN, which is the international standard book number, which is like, it's a book's version of a license plate for a car. It's a unique identifier so the book can be identified anywhere around the world. So you would look at the people who help you produce the book from all, from the ground up, from the editing to the design, and then putting it all together and then putting it onto one of these print on demand platforms. It's not overly difficult, but there's a lot of information that comes at you, so that can be a little bit daunting to navigate. You know, years ago, everyone self publishing was looked at as a vanity thing. That's why they called it vanity publishing. But it's really become a legitimate media now because years ago, self published books look like they were knocked up together in someone's garage. The paper was this really stiff white stuff and the colors of this thick cardboard, so it really looked like an amateur project. But nowadays, you have access to the same technology big publishers are using, so you can produce a book that's physically indistinguishable from anything coming out of a big publisher. It's just up to you to make sure that the content is also the same, the same quality. I mean, sometimes I've seen authors who are like, no, it doesn't need editing. My ideas are so awesome that people want characters if you spelling mistakes or, you know, stuff like that, which is a fallacy, because, I mean. I mean, I don't know what you're like as a reader, but if I'm reading something and I spot an error, it sort of takes me a little bit out of the story. And then if I spot a second error, I'm then just looking for problems in the book. So it punctures that suspension of disbelief or that immersion in the content. So, you know, you make sure that the content of your book is as good as it possibly can be. You get sort of one chance to make a first impression. A lot of people, the rush, because it's such an exciting prospect to get your book out there globally, but it's really important that, you know, you make it as good as it possibly can be.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: Yeah, you're absolutely speaking the truth there. And I learned from experience in my first year, uni, self published children's, you could argue, was it middle grade? Was it junior fiction project? But, I mean, it was a good starting point. I didn't really know much myself, but the thing that held me back was that I didn't get it professionally edited, and that just gave me crippling self doubt, get behind the work or anything like that. So I've kind of used that book, and regular listeners will be like, oh, yeah, we know she talks about that all the time. But I do use that book, I hold it up and say, this is my lessons learned. It's always get your work professionally edited, I think from like an authorship perspective. Obviously, that's one part of it, getting your work to the highest standard, professionally edited in terms of making the product, although, you know, you can outsource all these people, and I guess, like in a publishing house, thinking from a publishing perspective, if you're going to set up as a micro publisher for yourself and your work, the different people, obviously, if you're not an artist, a cover designer, which is really important, and then you're sending it onto like, ingramspark or the print on demand places, so the quality comes from them. How much do you think you need to know about actual printing itself in terms of the technology behind it, sort of thing, like, so I've got a couple of non fiction books, and I have put those, I have printed through Ingramspark for those. Now, that was a learning curve for the first one in terms of sizing, because this book was very small. It was about, I call them short nonfiction because the first one only about 7000 words. It's tiny, and it's like a. It's almost what I call, it's like a quick tips book. There's like 60 plus quick tips on freelance writing, business setup, and you just kind of. It's like little paragraphs, little quick tips, and you just can flick ahead. But originally, because it was, the content was so small, and I think I had chosen a size that was fairly big. I honestly have. And again, I use all this as lessons learned in workshopping and stuff. About seven of these books in different sizes, because this was me just getting a feel for the content, fitting in what size. So I guess thinking of the overall packaging of the product. And also, I had images in this book that just were coming faded all the time. And I found out it was to do with, I don't know if it was the ink on the paper or the type of paper. So I'm wondering, like, how much do you think you need to educate yourself on actual printing logistics as a micro publisher?
[00:17:17] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, one of the great things about both platforms is, you know, with authors that we deal with, we always order a proof copy of a book so they can see what it looks like physically.
And then, you know, sometimes we get off is changing the paper type or the wherever the colors gloss on that or. So, you know, I think, I don't think you really sort of need to know a lot about the actual specifications behind printing, because, I mean, that's a specialty in itself. But something that would be important is to sort of go in and have a really good idea of what you want to do. So, I mean, just checking your own bookshelves or going to the library or going to a bookstore and then looking at the sort of books in that genre that you're writing and just looking at the format, looking at the sizes they use, things like that, jotting that down, then going to RFS platforms and then just sort of seeing what comparable sizes they have, what, you know, paper stocks they have. I mean, the good thing about the proofing part of it is you can get it sent out to you, like with gloss cover and white paper, and then you can change it over to matte paper outside to matte cover and cream paper and see what it looks like differently. So you can sort of play around with it. I mean, obviously it's going to cost you a little bit, but it's worth it to see what it's like physically because the way you envision it and the way it rise are two different things. So, I mean, I've been looking at, like, I just was sort of doing research about seeing what you like and then just trying to duplicate that, if that makes sense.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: No, it absolutely does. And it's something that I do as well. There's a women's fiction project. I've got a self published project. So I've gone to the bookstores and had a look at the shelves and seen, like, the sizes, I guess, in that genre that kind of catch my eye. Like, the bigger ones and how fat they are and all the rest of it, but, yeah, I can't seem to find, like, the actual. Where do they put it? I thought they would have put it in the inner page, like, the actual sizing of the book. Do you have to find it online? The actual.
[00:19:00] Speaker C: The width by length?
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Yeah, they're like the dimensions of it. Like, it doesn't actually sort of state it.
[00:19:05] Speaker C: I would. I would just. I would just sneakily do it with a ruler or tape measure.
I mean, if you go to library, you can do it sort of more casually. I mean, the other thing, just harking back to something else. You said, if you're doing a series, think about the way the whole series is going to look, not just that first book.
You know, if you look at. If you. I mean, we have people who are doing fantasy series and that sort of thing. So think about stylistically what motifs you want to carry over the series. You know, the type of covers, what it's going to look like. You know, the actual word length is going to be sort of consistent throughout, you know, because with series, you do want a little bit of that consistency to carry through because it gives you a sense of purpose and that it's really been thought out rather than sort of doing like something that's a really tiny size, then doing something huge because it's 80,000 words suddenly and all that sort of stuff. So think about how that actually looks throughout your whole series and, you know, a really good exercise just to envision if they're all sitting on the shelf, how would you like them to look? You know, stuff like colors of colors and that sort of stuff would do. They're going to be different, bright colors. I mean, look at, they're not self published, but you look like the Harry Potters were released a little while ago where each book had a unique bright color, which is sort of a really nice marketing thing. So think about the way you want that series to look with each book individually, but also the series as a whole.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's really good advice, actually. And also, you know, there's some authors that I sort of follow in the UK and stuff and who self publish, and they're all doing quite funky things. Have you heard of Kickstarter? Yeah. So most of them are doing these projects through Kickstarter, and so that's allowing them to make these really beautiful products with, like, embossing, and they're talking about sprayed edges. And I had to look it up because I was like, I've never heard of a sprayed edge. I did do a printing thing in my uni and I find it really interesting. That's why. Yeah, I'm quite asking the questions about how much you need to know about this sort of stuff. They're really, really experimenting and I think it's really cool.
[00:20:54] Speaker C: We've gotten a little bit of that in terms of like, I'll take embossing, for example. So embossing for people who don't know is where the COVID will have sort of raised. The text might be a little bit raised, but you can actually feel the grooves and that sort of stuff of it. And the print on demand facilities don't do that yet. Now, the thing is, they're constantly evolving. So, you know, like, originally they weren't printing on the inside of covers either, but they're doing that now. So it's going to be constantly a process that evolves and incorporate, incorporates things, you know, to make the book a little bit fancier and all that sort of stuff.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: So would that be more of like, a local specialist printer? You would be sourcing for that, right? Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:29] Speaker C: Stuff like embossing. I mean, they still aren't using recycled paper, which is a little bit of surprise. But, I mean, recycled paper actually is generally more expensive than just standard paper. So there's sort of little things like that, the sprayed edges, as you said, they're not doing that. But, man, previously I got Ingramspark. They were doing for hardcovers. They were doing dust jackets and case laminate. So case laminate's just the way they stick the COVID image to the COVID It's got like, that nice, hard finish. There's a dust jacket you can peel off. But I actually noticed last time I looked that they actually were doing a hardcover now, which had both. So it had the case laminate finish, but also the dust jacket. And the one thing I know with Ingramspark is they're constantly adding so many sizes, so there's so many different ones to choose from. I mean, you know, you're in an industry where you can really, if you want it to be totally, I think, go do something totally your own way and just try and break out of, you know, expectation. I mean, one thing with standard publishers are they are going to do things the standard way for the most part, as an self publisher, for an indie author, as we call it, you know, you can do whatever you like. You're the master of your own destiny. So going into self publishing, you should really look at, like, yeah, what do I want this to look like? And I know what else is happening in my genre and all that sort of stuff, but is there a different way I want to do it? Is there a way I'm going to stand out? Unfortunately, one of the things, like I've heard most when I've been working in this industry is authors coming in and telling me I've written a book or I've got an idea for a book and it's going to be a bestseller. And, I mean, me and my boss, we used to just sort of roll our eyes and it was like, it may be a bestseller, but it's not that easy. If it was, everyone would be doing it. And I think it's a sort of right of passage for a lot of writers because I used to think like that when I was, you know, a lot younger. Like last week. No, I used to think like that when I was like, you know, in my teens and early twenties. I'm going to break out. I'm going to be huge and all that sort of stuff. And with writing, with the arts in general, I mean, it's one of those few industries where being the best doesn't actually really matter. You can be a great writer and your book might just go at the wrong time or it might, you know, not resonate with audiences or, you know, just whatever. It just doesn't fit at that time. And that's just generally writing. You know, there's plenty of authors who become famous long after their deaths. So you're at the whims of so many different things of timing, audiences, tastes and all that sort of stuff. All you can do is put the best product out and then try and push it as much as possible. There's really no formula for a bestseller. And if there was like all the, the big publishers with big marketing dollars behind them would be producing bestseller after bestseller after bestseller. They don't do that. They have a handful of bestsellers and have a handful of moderate sellers and then they have, you know, a lot of underperformers. And that's just the reality of the arts in general. I mean, it happens in music also. So, you know, and then meanwhile, you know, saying quality doesn't always matter. I won't name any books, but there's been some really average books that have become huge globally, you know.
[00:24:18] Speaker A: Do you think that's to do with the, so there's some people who, you know, that's their profession. They sort of work and tweak and do what they do for the algorithms to get the book up there, especially on like Amazon charts and all that sort of stuff to hit the best seller status. Do you think people pay for that?
[00:24:34] Speaker C: Yeah, Amazon used to sort of have little loopholes that you could use to push your book up. I mean, they don't do it anymore. But one I recall years ago was you could put it up for like an ebook for free and everybody would download it and that's going to push it up the charts. And then once it's actually in, you know, it's not selling, but it's in the best selling charts and they start charging for it and it's just, it was a loophole and they closed that out and they are constantly doing that. They're looking at ways of closing out people who gain the system. I mean, the marketing aspect is so important, you know, but it's also, you know, I remember 15 years ago when I was studying, I went back to school as a metuo student. That's 17 years ago now. And that, and they were saying, you know, you should have a website, you should blog, you should get social media. And it's like, okay, people are still being told that today, and it's really useful to do, but everyone's doing it. So you got to think about ways you can break out, you know? And I always tell authors, don't think about what's happening today, think about what's going to happen tomorrow, because you need to get ahead of the curve, and then it's just lateral ways. We saw Matthew Riley speak many, many years ago because he self published his first book.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: Yeah, he did.
[00:25:35] Speaker C: And he said he would sit on buses pretending he was reading his own book, holding it up so the COVID was splayed open so everyone could see. And you'd make appreciative noises so people would think, oh, that he must be really be enjoying that.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: He must have, must have had a lot of tape on his hands up and down the street.
[00:25:54] Speaker C: It's just stuff like that. I mean, so you got to think about ways. There is, there are traditional ways. You know, you're trying to get reviews, you're trying to get interviews and that sort of stuff. Don't leave that stuff late. A lot of people think, I'm going to release my book and now I'm going to try and get those things. Yeah, I mean, a lot of these people, a lot of reviewers are booked out for months and months in advance. So you're going to be doing this. You're going to be thinking like six months down the track. Because, you know, reviewers want to review books when they come out. They don't want to review them six months after they're out. And it's like movies. Movies are reviewed when they come out, not six months later. So, you know, you really want to put all that advanced hype into it. Similarly, like with movies, you know, for movies, you don't just learn of a movie when it comes out. Six months before it comes out, they'll release a 32nd teaser, then they might do another one a month later, and then they'll do like a two minute trailer. And then they'll month later do another two minute trailer. And then, you know, a month before it comes out, they might send the actors out to do some press. So in that six month lead up or so, they constantly hyping up the movie. So when it actually does come out, there's all this buzz and expectation for it and that's where it's meant to pay off. And books are the same. Yeah, the difference of books is, I mean, the beauty of books is books are immortal. You know, they're going to be out there forever. So particularly with, like, print on demand technology. I mean, previously, if you were doing pre established print runs once that books. Yeah, because if you look at a bookstore, there's constantly new books coming in.
[00:27:11] Speaker A: It's, um, it's hard not to feel overwhelmed as well with the amount of books that are out there. And also, you know, I keep hearing as well that some people, they've put a work out there and then five years later, all this stuff happens with it. It just either takes off or it's whatever. So, yeah, it's crazy, but that's what.
[00:27:30] Speaker C: I was going to say. Like, if you did an established print on the 500 books and when you got it in bookstores, I mean, they're going to keep it in stock for a little while and they're working on consignment, so they're not paying you until they're selling books. And then once it's had its run, if it's not doing well, they're going to return it to you or return it to the publisher. And, you know, it's not uncommon for books to be polled. So the really good thing about print of the man and, you know, being your own micro publisher is you digitally catalog these things. So they're out there on Amazon and all these places, and they're out there forever. There's no reason, you know, the print on demand facilities don't have expiration dates, so the book can just sit there in perpetuity, so short of a nuclear war and, you know, electromagnetic pulses wiping out hard drives, all that sort of stuff, the book's always going to be there. And, you know, the one thing I always sort of say, I ask authors that I work with or I try assess, is like, is this author just like, I call them one shot authors, some of them, and they're the people who are just doing like a bio or memoir, a family history, and that's all they want to do. Yeah, but then you get like, career authors, people who are like, I want to make a career out of this. I want to release, you know, book after book after book. And that's where I sort of say, well, if you're going to do that, you should think about really branding as your own micro publisher and come up with a name. It can be, you know, whatever you like it to be. Go register the business name if you really want to take it that far, get a logo design. You can register for your own ISBN's, I mean, they have a joining fee, but you can register them under your own publishing name. And both platforms of Kindle direct publishing and Ingramspark, they allow you to put your publisher name in there. So, you know, when you're uploading your book, you can, let's say you call it Morel Publishing. When it appears on all these digital, all these retailers, it'll appear under Morel publishing. So it doesn't also look totally self published because I know people still have a bit of a trepidation about the stigma that's attached to self publishing. So you can really set yourself up to be your own publisher and the greater audience won't really, you know, they won't know any better whether it's self published or traditionally published. And they just keep releasing books. And one of the things about writing, and again, it's probably about a lot of the arts, it's about perseverance. So we all want that dream story that we release the book and it's an overnight success and yay, we all celebrate and all that. But the amount of people have the overnight success is really, really, really slim. Most people are just there slogging it out. And it's not until they sort of have three, four, five books out there that they really start to develop a readership. Because what happens is someone reads their book and says, well, I like this. What else is this author done? And they look them up and they find, oh, hang on, they've got three, four books out there. And so you develop, you, you create this viral awareness for yourself as an author. And you're not just an author, you're also a brand for your work. So you're creating this awareness for yourself and your writing. So it's, you get this prevalence that happens both on the Internet, but you also get from word of mouth that people then start talking about you. Whereas if you just have that one book out there, someone might like it and then go, what else have they written? And then they turn around and go, well, they've got nothing else out. And that's it. You flavor the month for that month and, and you're forgotten. And then if you release enough books two, three years later, like, people have probably forgotten about you. So as a writer and as a career writer and somebody now, like, if you are setting up your own micro publisher, you have to look at, like, the permanence of how you infiltrate for the one with a better word, that space in reader's consciousness and how you actually create that awareness for yourself and your writing.
[00:30:45] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's really, really good advice there. And especially, as I said just before feeling overwhelmed, a little bit of how many books are out there and how many people it feels like. Like our self publishing. And like you said, it's seen as a really good aspect now, a really good option. So there is a lot more people turning to it.
[00:31:03] Speaker C: I mean, one thing I've learned from my engine. Sorry to interrupt you.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: No, no, you go.
[00:31:08] Speaker C: Is. I mean, I've been writing Jesus a long time. It's about 37 years. And, you know, I used to go through all that disappointment and despondency when I'd get a rejection from a traditional publisher and all that, and I'd question myself, you know, am I good enough? And all that sort of stuff. And I really developed an attitude, probably it's only really recent, so probably about the last five, six years. It's like all you can do is the best for your work. So, you know, do get a professional edit, get some. Well, no, even before that, have some work shopping buddies that you can swap stories with, people you trust to give you constructive and honest feedback, you know, really work on putting the best product out there. And once you've done that, it's really up to, you know, the winds or the gods or whatever you call it. And there's no point sort of investing in it because you have no control over it. So it's really just being able to tell yourself, look, I've done the very best I can. Whatever happens next happens next, and I'll just accept it. If you start investing expectation in it, that's where you get disappointed, because, you know, you might get. You might not get the sales you want, you know, and most people don't. So. And that's the upper reality. You got to keep it in context. If you're not getting the sales you want, you're not the only one. This is happening to authors everywhere.
And that's just the reality of the industry, too.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: Your advice be to keep. Keep writing the next book and just keep writing?
[00:32:23] Speaker C: Yeah, keep writing. So, yeah, you know, and examine why you're doing this, too. You know, I've had conversations with authors and I've asked them, why do you write? And if you really sort of push them and get to it, it's because they love to tell stories. Sure. Again, we'd all love the riches and the fame and the adulation and all that sort of stuff, but that's a byproduct. So really, if you're writing, you should be writing because you have that, that desire to tell stories, to share stories of people. And that's what I sort of eventually found out about myself in terms of, because I went through all the traditional publishing route. I didn't have the sales I expected for you. And that's no fault of anyone. They just the reality of the industry again. And I was really disappointed and all that sort of stuff and went through what am I doing and all that, but then just sort of realized, look, I, you know, my books aren't perfect, but I think they're pretty good. So I've done the best I can, just take pride in that. I have no control over what reviewers think and what sales think and all that sort of stuff, you know. So if you start to worry about that, you're really obsessed about the negative. And I know from experience, and I've spoken to writer friends, you could go to Goodreads and have a hundred reviews and 99 of them can be brilliant, and you will focus on that one bad one. Yeah.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: It does happen, doesn't it?
[00:33:33] Speaker C: Yeah. So, you know, it's, don't invest in that because you're really just tormenting yourself. Just take pride in what you've done and take pride in trying to do the very best that you can do. And this is the other thing with writers that I found and I've learned. So everything I talk about, like, I've gone through myself. So I'm not sort of mocking inexperienced writers because I've done this myself. But, like, I actually found also, I had a friend who went to a workshop, and he's very, very experienced writer and very well respected in industry. And he said he turned over his short story and he was just petrified what people were going to say. And he said some 20 year old guy walked in handed his short story just really cocky, goes, I don't get it. He goes, why is that guy so cocky? And I, you know, I'm petrified. You know, I've 20 years on him. And I really thought about that for a while, and then I sort of realized because the 20 year old doesn't know what might be wrong with his story. He just lives as brilliant. Whereas my friend, who's, like I said, very respected and in the industry, he knows all the things that could possibly be wrong. And he's also isn't arrogant enough to believe there might be things wrong he hasn't even contemplated. So the more experience you get, the more self doubt you get. But in a way, it's good because it drives you to improve, and it drives you to evolve, and it drives you to find ways to say things better, to write things better, to constantly get better. One of the biggest threats to any artistic endeavor is just complacency, that thinking you're there, you're great, you know, because if you're not being challenged and you are going to start producing not your best work, you're going to just start producing things that are. Yeah, I think you sort of see this with some filmmakers who've reached a level where they're revered, but then their work sort of really drops off. And same with authors, too. I feel it's because I no longer have those people around them challenging them, saying, is this best, you know, idea, or is this character motivated? Or have you considered this plot hole or whatever? And that's a good thing because you go away and you think, okay, how do I improve that and how do I answer? Because the other thing with writing, too, is you send your work out there and your work has to stand for itself. You're not there explaining to a reader why this has happened or what you meant by this. So the work has to answer every question that reader has before the reader ever realizes they're going to ask that question. Sort of gone off on a tangent.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: But, no, I'm loving it. It's great. Honestly, it's good.
[00:35:43] Speaker C: So, yeah, just to say, like, you know, don't ever, you know, take shortcuts and really take pride in what you're doing and do it for the love of doing it rather than doing it for, you know, because you want to be rich and all that sort of stuff. If that happens, great. But that should be your priority.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: No, not at all. I know they said that you don't get complacent.
[00:36:03] Speaker C: I can't remember it was Samuel Jackson, but pretty sure it was Samuel Jackson. But there's some actor I remember who said it took me 20 years to become an overnight sensation, and he was just talking. I'm pretty sure it was Samuel Jackson, but you're sort of saying like, he was around in movies for ages and no one really took notice of him. And then he had, like, the hit hit, and everyone's like, oh, hey, Samuel Jackson. What a great actor. But he's an interesting one because if you watch old movies, you'll see him pop up in so many different things in small parts, like from Jurassic park to the sea of love with Al Pacino. You know, he's just got these tiny little parts. He was always there. And it's a good listen, too, because it's just perseverance. You just get pushing and pushing and then you got his recognition.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: I think it's maybe people outside of the industry as well, though, that do you think you're an overnight sensation? Because they don't, like you said, especially for writing, and they don't see you chipping away at it. And if you've got nothing before, or you could have about, like myself, five unpublished manuscripts sitting at home, but each one's been a lesson learned and, you know, ten years and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, same as, I think, because Adam Sandler, he pops up for like five or ten minutes in. I don't know if you've seen it, but it used to be one of my favorite movies with Dan Ackaroid, and I can't mind who else is in it. The cornheads. Do you remember that?
[00:37:19] Speaker C: I don't remember, but I remember the movie Janko here.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: Yeah, Adam Sandler just, he's got a minor part in it to just give, give the coneheads their fake green card or whatever. And it only twigged. I watched that as a kid so many times. And then when I watched, it was older because he's really famous. I was like, oh, my gosh, there's him. And there was an older nineties movie as well. It was like a love movie with Freddie Prince Junior and Julia Styles and Ashton Kutcher is in it and he has got no speaking part. He's in it for like 2 seconds in the background and he's massive now, you know.
[00:37:57] Speaker C: Yeah, it's funny, I've been watching John Hughes movies lately, and they're just like, there's a lot of people like John Cusack and all these other actors are sort of appearing in, you know, I can't remember, 16 candles are pretty in pink. There's all these actors who went on to really big careers who just sort of had these bit parts in some of these films. But, you know, again, it's just the porsche. Just, you got to keep trying. And it can be really dispiriting when you get rejections or when you don't get sales or you might get bad reviews or whatever, but it really is a case of perseverance because, you know, nothing's going to happen if you give up and that's all that comes. And if, unfortunately, you've chosen, like, the writers listening, a really difficult industry.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: Yeah, but in the same breath as well. Like, all people might not reap initially in the beginning the financial rewards that they want. Like, I've got to say, I have to laugh that I've entered this profession because it requires you to be disciplined and all these things and which were all the things I was not as a younger person. So to come in and do this, it sort of shapes you as a person. Like, there's other things as well, I think.
[00:39:07] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, I definitely. I mean, I'm the same. You know, I have a discipline in writing. I probably don't have in a lot of my. The rest of my life.
But again, I mean, the really good thing, I think, with writers is you have a love of something so passionate that, you know, you want to do it regardless of the fact that is like walking into a tidal wave a lot of the time. And I think that's pretty special because a lot of people never really discovered their passion in life, you know, that they just do whatever they need to do. And as I said before, for me, you know, and I've had mental health issues with anxiety and stuff over my life. Writing is the one time I actually feel at peace where I just feel like, you know, I'm in control and, you know, and there's times, like, where I write, you know, I'll be whatever, halfway through a novel, and I'll think, I didn't realize that was going to connect up that way.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:51] Speaker C: You also get these sort of aha. Moments, and you think maybe I'm a little bit cleverer than I thought it was.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you go.
[00:40:00] Speaker C: I was just gonna say, I've been working the Sci-Fi novel, which I finished Christmas last year, and I've just, with work and stuff, I've been really slow revising. And it was a real messy novel, but going through it now and giving it some shape, like I said, it's really gratifying. So, you know, when you see that vision sort of taking form, it's.
It gives you this really good buzz.
[00:40:20] Speaker A: It's crazy how it does all just come together. Like, you can be feeling like you're sort of, oh, gosh, I'm never gonna this and this and that. And then at the end, it just trusts the process because it does all just come together magically, not spiritually as well.
[00:40:34] Speaker C: It's funny, too, because I've had experiences where I might have sent out two short stories or even two screenplays or something. And there's one, I think, oh, yeah, this is a really good chance of whatever getting accepted or what. And then there's the other one, which is like, that's an afterthought. And it's the afterthought that, you know, get selected. Yeah. So you're also, like, generally you're the worst judge of your own work. Of your own work, too, because, um, you are your own worst critic. I mean, that's the other thing with Fridays, which I find really funny, is it's people in general, but you speak to yourself in a way you'd never speak to friends. Like, if you had a friend who was written something and got in rejection, you'd really encourage them and support them. But the way you talk to yourself is, you know, you get really down on yourself.
[00:41:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:15] Speaker C: Am I any good? Why am I doing this? Why don't I just give up? So. But we can be really harsh on ourselves. And, I mean, I think a lot of writers do have a really deep level of empathy, which I think develops from having to imagine the way characters think in different situations and all that sort of stuff. Writers, I find, tend to feel very, very, very deeply. But the flip side of that is when things are going wrong, they tend to feel that very, very, very deeply. So the other lesson would be, be kind to yourself, because it is a difficult industry.
[00:41:42] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. No, well said. Therefore, everything. Les and I could absolutely talk to you all day, but we'll have to wrap up. But our listeners would love to know where they can discover you, your books, everything. You do, your work with authors on and offline.
[00:41:59] Speaker C: Okay, so I work for Busybird Publishing, which is www.busybird.com dot au. And you can find my website, www.lezzig.com. There's no au on that. And my books would still be on places like Amazon and Booktopia and those sort of places. My latest on my YA novel came out last year. If that one was traditionally published, Midnight Sun Publishing, that was called this. And that was just about. That was very biographical. It was a lot about my mental health experiences as a team, but I just sort of smashed into one year, and then I'm hoping this year to bring out one myself as a Les Zig book. So. And that's the other thing I always say for writing. Always, always be writing. I just find it so, you know, regardless of how you feel, try and write a little bit because you just want to discipline yourself and teach yourself that, look, I'm doing this regardless of the reasons or, sorry, not the reasons, the excuses, I shouldn't. Because when we do get down on ourselves, we want to quit. And, you know, people sometimes go, I want to watch this tv show, or I can't be. And actually the one last thing I'll say with writing, too, is a lot of people, a lot of inexperienced people have this romanticized notion about what a, you know, what a brilliant trip it is. It's all ecstasy. It's all, you know, Hemingway in France and all that sort of stuff. Writing is really difficult at times, and it is really frustrating and painful. And, you know, I always say it's very much like a relationship in a lot of ways that, you know, you don't always love your partner. Sometimes they just drive you nuts. Sometimes they make you angry. Sometimes you feel like you don't love them. Sometimes they bore you and all that sort of stuff. But if the core of it, it's true, you always return to it. So, you know, if you're writing and just finding it a really difficult slog, don't stress that it can be, but you'll, you know, just push through it.
[00:43:42] Speaker A: Absolutely. For me, you know, I get a lot of ideas and stuff like that, and then I think to the end of my life, whenever that may be, that would be a regret of mine if I didn't give life to the ideas and the stories that I've got that's regardless of whether it makes money or it gets made or whatever happens, it's. Yeah. For me, I'm much like yourself. I've got to, got to do this. It feels like a calling. So.
[00:44:05] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, my boss, my boss, Blaze van Heck, so she passed away a couple of years ago unexpectedly. But she used to really encourage people to write and just leave their stories behind as a legacy. And that's one truth. I mean, you know, you look at people like Shakespeare and that their stories are still here long after they're gone.
[00:44:21] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:44:22] Speaker C: So we can leave something behind for not just our family and friends, but, you know, for future generations.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And like you said, if it's not the time now, like, who knows when it's the time that is going to be important.
[00:44:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, go back to my friend Blaze. Like I said, she passed away unexpectedly, so we don't know what's going to happen from any given moment. So take advantage of the moment while you still have it because we don't know what's coming.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: That's it. Yes. Well, thank you so much, Les. It's been so insightful and inspiring talking to you. Thanks again for coming on.
[00:44:55] Speaker C: Thanks so much for having me on, Joann.
[00:45:04] Speaker B: So there you have it, folks. The absolutely amazing Les Zig. What a knowledgeable fellow. So much experience in the industry. I hope you'll check out Les's books, all everything he does over at his website. Next time on the hybrid author podcast. We have an almost mid year mashup of some of the guests from the start of 2024. Can you believe we are almost in? We're almost halfway through the year. It's an absolute spin out. I wish you well on your author adventure this next week. That's it from me. Bye for now.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: That's the end for now, authors. I hope you are further forward in your author adventure after listening. And I hope you'll listen next time. Remember to head on over to the hybrid author website at www.hybridauthor.com dot au to get your free author pass. It's bye for now.
