Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Atmosphere Press, a hybrid publisher helping authors publish books their readers will love. As this is the hybrid author podcast, I'm absolutely thrilled to have a hybrid publisher as a sponsor and atmosphere press are a wonderful bunch of people made up of an international team of book professionals bringing books from raw manuscripts all the way through editorial proofreading, interior design, cover design, public nation, global distribution, and publicity. In true hybrid style, atmosphere Press authors keep all their book rights and are involved every step of the way. They have free book giveaways and free author publicity opportunities available right now, so head on over to atmospherepress.com links in the show notes. They're especially eager to publish new work from australian authors, so make sure to reach out to them for a manuscript review. And don't forget to make mention of the hybrid author podcast in your query or cover letter, which will get you a special expedited review.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Hello authors. I'm Joanne Morell, children's and young adult fiction writer and author of short nonfiction for authors. Thanks for joining me for the Hybrid Author podcast, sharing interviews from industry professionals to help you forge a career as a hybrid author, both independently and traditionally publishing your books. You can get the show notes for each episode and sign up for your free author pass over at the hybrid author website to discover your writing process, get tips on how to publish productively, and get comfortable promoting your books at www.hybridauthor.com au. Let's crack on with the episode.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: Hello authors. I hope you're all keeping well in whatever part of the world you reside and listen to. The podcast in today's interview is with award winning author, editor or translator of more than 20 books and works for theater Zach Rogo and we are chatting hybrid memoir and unearthing stories within your family. Rejection, author advice and so much more.
So in my author adventure this week I attended personal development kind of business event called reimagine your business and it was all based around OpenAI artificial intelligence and it wasn't targeted at authors, but more just at business owners across the board in general. And I was absolutely blown away by this talk.
It was a free event and it started off really good. That was sharing information about AI, just what it does. Pretty ingenious. What kind of things is helping out with business and stuff like that.
And so it kind of kicked off quite good and then it was a whole day event when we came back after lunch. Then he kind of went on to talk about his businesses and his courses and all his things, and that went on for hours and I just was a bit headpicked. So I ended up leaving and I didn't stay to the end to hear about the rest of the AI stuff. So a couple lessons learned. Like, I learned a lot in the short beginning that he gave value like it was free, obviously, so he's got to sell his stuff. But, yeah, I was a little bit. He just felt like a bit much selling in the middle. And it was just a big, long day and my head was sort of pounding, my phone died, and I wasn't very organized. So basically what I took away from it was that obviously everyone knows AI tools, or AI in general, is not going anywhere. And that if you haven't already, you need to start playing around with it. And from the emotional stance, don't be scared of it. Just see for yourself what it's about. I did an episode on will you or won't you? AI probably four episodes back. And as I said, I've been listening to the conversation and everybody's getting quite hot and heavy, and they have been for years, apparently, with this, but it's rolling out extremely fast, faster. Like, each model is getting better and better. And he showed us, like, which is really exciting, an AI. I think it's Sora Sorer and that's text to video. So basically, you could type into this thing. His example was, show me a video of Will Smith eating noodles and that thing will create that. But the version of this on what the video he showed us was all distorted, so it wasn't really moving properly or whatever. Then he showed us the newer version and the prompt that I'd just been put in it. Know, asian lady walking along streets of Hong Kong in the wet. And the graphics on this was just incredible. The whole thing is quite scary because it shakes up every industry. The film, the writing, just everybody across the board. And what this guy's predictions were was, it's not going anywhere. The predictions was that businesses will need to have their own AI bots and to create them. And that all seems quite scary and quite advanced down the line, but it's definitely what's coming. And no, he just spoke about, you can either obviously be quite scared of these tools or you can look at them as an opportunity for going forward, but if you do not act on them now, you will be left behind in terms of business. So, I mean, it's worth just having a look, if you haven't already. When I was sitting there, like, I could see the positive sides. It scared me a little bit, too. Yeah, it kind of did. But then I guess you'd have to take it in and look at how it's going to work for your business. And it's certainly something that I am going to be brainstorming and implementing myself. Things sort of working pretty quickly in YA fiction news. I am still plotting, so a little bit behind. I wanted to have already started writing by now, plotting my young adult fiction book, but I am really, really loving where the plot's going and it's getting pretty intertwined in this small country sort of setting and the backstory of the characters, which half of it won't even make in the book. But I'm having such fun being like, whoo, this person's done this person wrong and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that's all coming together really, really well and I know it's going to be really great in the end. And I'm just so excited for some of the characters in this story. For those of you who don't know, I am a member of the Society of Children's Book Writers and illustrators. I do the newsletter and the social media person, and we have our Rotness writers retreat booked in June and so they have guest publishers come and I'm hoping that I'll get a slot with one of them to pitch my work to them. This YA is going to rotness because it was intended at the start of the year to be entering a competition which closed on the 17th and it just wasn't ready. I dragged work in my women's fiction into this year, which was supposed to be finished. So again, I'm sort of like behind on schedule of what I wanted, but I'm sure at some point I'll be able to catch up and whatnot. This Monday I have my first mentoring session with my business coach, who is going to be working with me in the next nine months. I think it is to get this book business where I want it to be. So that means more books, more money, more career.
[00:07:28] Speaker C: Zach Rogo is an award winning author, editor, or translator of more than 20 books and works for theater. His play has been performed worldwide and his blog advice for writers features more than 275 posts. Zach's upcoming memoir, Hugging my Father's Ghost, will be released in 2024. Welcome to the Hybrid Author podcast, Zach.
[00:07:50] Speaker D: Thank you so much, Joanne. It's very exciting to be here and to be talking to listeners in many places, including Australia, which is so far from my home in California.
[00:08:00] Speaker C: We're absolutely thrilled and honored to have you. Thank you so much for joining us today and it sounds know, you've got quite a lot of accolades under your belt, but can you tell us, how did you come to be in the writing and publishing industry?
[00:08:12] Speaker D: Well, as this book talks about, my dad was a widely published author. He passed along the family business, in a sense to be a writer. And I grew up in a home with a lot of books. My mom was an avid reader and writers were always in our house and always seemed to me like fascinating people. I've always felt writers were the most interesting people to know, so I always wanted to be one.
[00:08:37] Speaker C: That's amazing. And did your mum do some writing as well? Is it more just from your father's side?
[00:08:42] Speaker D: I think she could have done a lot more. She did occasionally write short stories, and there's a letter of hers that appears in my memoir as well. But she didn't write as much as she could have. She was a wonderful teacher of writing. It was really my mom and not my dad who taught me how to write.
[00:08:59] Speaker C: No, that's great because today's topic is about unearthing stories within your family. So can you tell us a bit about the upcoming memoir as mentioned in the bio hugging my father's ghost, and why you decided to unearth this particular story within your family?
[00:09:15] Speaker D: Well, during COVID I had a lot of time on my hands, like many people, and I started to go through the writings of my dad, who I didn't really know. My dad passed away tragically in an airplane crash when I was three years old. And everyone said glowing things about him. He was a captain of a ship in the navy during World War II. He was so handsome. He was an accomplished writer. All of which is true. And yet, when you only hear those accolades, you don't really get a sense of a person as three dimensional. And during COVID I went through unpublished writings of my dad that my sister had kept in her basement for half a century. And I found many secrets in these unpublished writings that prompted me to write this book. And then I started interviewing everyone who was still alive who knew my dad. And I found out many more things that made me want to write a whole book about this character and how his life was different and in some ways very similar to mine. Not the warrior part.
[00:10:17] Speaker C: Yeah, that's amazing. And as you're sort of saying that images come to mind of yourself finding these works and it just sounds like a Hollywood movie, really, doesn't it? Stumbling across these treasures and then being inspired to write this memoir. And it's a brilliant story. So please share with us part of it.
[00:10:36] Speaker D: Well, I'd love to read part of this. I think of this as the hybrid memoir, which is why this show seems like a great fit, this podcast like a great fit for this book. And what I mean by a hybrid memoir is that my dad was also a writer. And so the book is a collage of different materials, from actual stories that he wrote, to conversations that I made up that involved my dad, to articles that appeared in the newspaper. There are many different elements that I quilted together to create this. And I'm going to read you a scene that I just basically invented for the book to try to get a sense of a particular episode in my father's life. So he had a very good friend when he was training in the naval officers corps in World War II, whose name was Herman Woke, who was a very famous novelist in the United States. He wrote war in remembrance. And his most famous book, perhaps, is the Cane Mutiny, which won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction the year I was born, 1952. And it was the first book by a jewish American to win the Pulitzer Prize, which is the highest honor for a fiction writer in the United States. And the main character in that book, I discovered through all this borrowing through different manuscripts, was based on my dad. And so, odly enough, because my dad was also a book reviewer and a theater reviewer, my dad wrote a review of this book, and his review was actually kind of negative. And so I'm imagining a scene that takes place at the beach resort, where our family had a home that was near the home of Herman. Woke this writer, this Pulitzer winning writer. And what happened the next time they met? After my dad published a negative review of his friend's best selling novel. So my mom says to my, huh? And my dad replies, well, if you like having great martinis on a patio overlooking the ocean around sunset and stimulating conversation with brilliant and funny people. Myself, I'd rather be starting a shift in a coal mine. And my mom says, don't look now, Lee. Lee was my dad. But isn't that Herman woke bearing down on you? I think I'm going to get some of those delicious d'oeuvres at that table way at the other side of the patio. Can I get you anything? And my dad says, just a shield and a helmet. And my mom says, blame the review on me. And in fact, my mom was in some way responsible for the review because she read the book and was more critical of it than my dad. So then Herman woke, arrives. My mother exits. Well, if it isn't Lee Rogo. I don't know if you remember me. I'm your neighbor here on Fire island. We were buddies in naval Officer training school. I'm a fellow writer, and our kids play together all the time. You look vaguely familiar. My dad conceits, and Herman woke says, so, been writing any reviews lately? And my dad says, look, Herman, I was all set to give your novel a great review. I'd written a draft, and then Mickey read the book, and she insisted that it needed a more nuanced treatment. Nuanced? Says herman woke. You mean the way a knife in the back is nuanced? And my dad says, like the umpire, says, Herman, I call them as I seize them. And Herman woke says, well, fortunately, the fans never agree with the ump. And my dad replies, so what do fans say about writers who use the private information that their buddies tell them about their girlfriends in naval officers training school? And Herman woke says, oh, come on, Lee. You're a writer. You know, we're magpies. We grab any shiny object and take it to our nest. And my DAD says, seems to me you've been taking many shiny objects to the bank lately, HERMAN. How many weeks has the K mutiny been on the top of the New York Times bestseller list? And Herman woke says, sorry, lost count. 33. And my DAD says, so, what are you doing for an encore? Don't tell me you're adapting the novel for HollYWOod? And Herman woke says, actually, I am. I just hope you're not planning to review the moVie.
So, interestingly, I think, in a weird way, my dad and Herman woke were able to stay friends after this negative review, because on some level, I'm guessing that Herman woke respected the fact that my dad's criticism took his book very seriously, and they remained friends until my father passed away. And, in fact, Herman woke actually gave the eulogy at my dad's funeral, and he published a glowing tribute to my dad after his death in the same publication where my dad had published the negative review of his book. All of this is in the book, the actual review, and so on. So I had to collage together all these different things, including things that I just made up, like that scene I just read in order to create a more picture.
[00:15:20] Speaker C: I think that's amazing, and I love that this podcast as well, the term hybrid just goes off, being coined in so many directions. So this is a first for me to think of a work hybrid with different sort of formats and things included in it, but I think it's really excellent.
[00:15:40] Speaker D: Can I tell you a secret about where I got the idea for this hybrid, I'd love to know. Yeah, but you can't tell your listener. No, we're going to tell the listener. So, I don't know if you've ever read the argentine novelist Manuel Puig, who wrote Kiss of the Spider Woman and a number of really good books. So I stole this idea from Manuel Puig, except he used it in fiction and I'm using it in memoir. But Manuel Puig does this really genius thing where he takes newspaper articles, summaries of movies, conversations, police reports, and he collages them all together, and he creates a story and an arc of a plot using all these different materials. And when I saw how he could do that in fiction, I thought I could do that in a memoir. I'm not that I'm comparing myself to Manuel, but I am saying where I got this idea from.
[00:16:33] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's really interesting as well. No, I just think it's really clever how people can create different works, and it's not just one way of doing things, and that's what this podcast is all about. And I think it can just enrich the story more. But that scene was the language and the way that you deliver it as well. It's got that sort of whimsical, kind of a little bit touch of comedy tone, but it's great. And your voice and your work comes through really thick and strong. It's a fantastic piece of work, so well done to you. And it sounds like obviously you've learned so much about your family, your father, grandparents, and probably your mum as well in writing it and putting this work together. But have you learned anything about yourself during the sort of writing and researching process? Not so much facts and things like that, but even just completing this work, has anything changed for you?
[00:17:29] Speaker D: I think I've learned too much about myself.
In some ways, this is also a personal memoir. There's another side to the hybrid, which is that this is my dad's story, but it's also how his life differed from mine, and how we were similar in ways that I didn't even understand. And one of the things that I find out about him is he had a journal that he kept during World War II that has been preserved, and he writes these wonderful notes about his girlfriend at the time, who I mention in the excerpt I just read.
He was going out with a nightclub singer named Sugar who entertained the troops during World War II, and he writes these just beautiful things about her in the journal. And I realized that he was a person who was capable of expressing everything that was in his heart, and that's something that I've always aspired to be.
He wasn't the kind of guy who's, I mean, he got along very well with the other officers who he served with, and he was one of the boys in a way, but he also had this very tender side. And I've always aspired to be the kind of person who was open to expressing that part of my heart as well. So that was interesting to see that parallel. But at the same time, I think that there are mistakes that I've made in my life that I don't think my father would have made based on what I learned about him. So there's interesting dialogue that I made up between the two of us where we tease out some of that material.
[00:18:59] Speaker C: And I think in some way you've sort of gotten to know your dad on a level that a lot of us probably wouldn't get to know our parents quite personally through his written works and other stuff that you've found.
[00:19:11] Speaker D: Having a parent who's a writer is a mixed blessing, as my children could tell you in detail. But in many ways, it's a very good thing because you can find out about things that a parent wouldn't always tell the child.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: Yeah, that's it. Well, my kids are nine and twelve and yeah, I'm yet to cross that bridge with them from them sort of reading anything that I write that's suitable for them at this age. But we will see.
[00:19:40] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:19:41] Speaker C: So with the memoir writing, this is your first memoir, isn't it?
[00:19:45] Speaker D: It is, yes, mostly both plays and poetry. And I'm a multitranslator of french literature.
[00:19:52] Speaker C: Fantastic. What have you found writing memoir from all the other formats that you write in? Do you have any tips for authors looking to write memoir and also unearth specific stories within their families?
[00:20:05] Speaker D: Well, I think it takes a lot of courage. You've got to be willing to face facts that you maybe weren't expecting to ever have to think about. And it also is incredibly cathartic and rewarding because you're finding out things about your family that explain so much about your life. So I found it to be, in a way, a kind of therapeutic experience as well. And that's difficult, but it's also very heartwarming in some ways.
[00:20:35] Speaker C: Absolutely. And are you going to do more works, like, in this way?
[00:20:40] Speaker D: Well, I have actually written a short memoir that's only magazine article length about another family that, in a sense, kind of adopted me or took me under their wing after both my parents had passed away. And that's being published in a magazine in California where I live, a wonderful magazine, which I recommend called Catamaran literary reader.
And I don't know, I'm not sure if I'm going to write more memoir. In a way, a lot of the poetry that I write is memoir because it's based on my memories.
[00:21:13] Speaker C: No, that's it. And with memoir, if you're writing about people who are still alive, rather than, say, deceased, do you have to get permissions and things? Do you need to check with them, like what you're writing and share the writing, or is it just personal preference? Do you know?
[00:21:26] Speaker D: Well, I did interview some people, and when I interviewed them, I warned them that I would use material, and I believe I read it back to them to make sure that they were okay with that. That's a tricky question. There are times that some people won't necessarily want to be quoted. So I think you have to be very strategic about how you use material if you know that it could be upsetting to other family members or friends.
[00:21:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's what a lot of writers worry about writing memoir is that what they write is going to upset somebody, especially if somebody close or are still living as well. But like you said, if you're respectful and you're interviewing people and actually saying up front, I'm going to use this material, then they can either say yes or no, I suppose.
[00:22:15] Speaker D: Yes. I think people like to talk, and if you're a good listener, as I think a writer needs to be, then you can get a lot of information from people, just from being open to what they have to say.
[00:22:29] Speaker C: Yeah, that's it. And your blog advice for writers, do you share memoir writing on there, or what kind of posts are you sharing in terms of advice and stuff for writers?
[00:22:39] Speaker D: A lot of the posts are very nuts and bolts things about your career as a writer. For example, I have a series of posts called how not to become a literary dropout, which is about how to sustain your career as a writer, because I think it's a very solitary calling. The poet Andre Breton is one of the french writers I've translated. He once said, writing is the loneliest road that leads everywhere.
[00:23:07] Speaker C: I love that.
[00:23:08] Speaker D: I love that saying because it gives you both a sense of the isolation of the writer and also the potential for communication that writing has and connection as well.
[00:23:19] Speaker C: It's kind of like the work is done almost isolated and solitary, and then when it emerges, you sort of connect with the world, hopefully in a positive manner.
[00:23:28] Speaker D: So there are a lot of different topics that I've included in the blog. Some of the most popular blogs I've noticed have to do with the dramatic monologue. People are very interested in the dramatic monologue, which is a form that was at one time very popular and has somewhat gone out of fashion, because we expect that people are going to talk about their own lives and their own thoughts. And in the dramatic monologue, you actually take on the Persona of another person or a famous person or a fictional character. And I think in a weird way, that allows you the freedom sometimes to be more honest and more frank because you're wearing the mask of that character whose personality you've taken on. That's one blog that I know. I have a whole series of blogs about that, and I know a lot of people have looked at that. Some of them are just about nuts and bolts, like how to get published and what to do about rejection.
There's such a high percentage of your work that gets rejected when you're an artist. I think that's true in all the arts. You have to really come up with a way to look at rejection constructively and how it can play a constructive role in your work as an artist, because you have to deal with it more often than not. So one of the things I find about rejection is that it gives me the opportunity to look at my work more objectively, because I'm seeing it through the eyes of someone else, not through my own vanity. And also, so it encourages me to keep working and improving my work.
But also, I like to think of submitting your work as a kind of victory in itself, whether or not you're accepted and published, because you're taking the risk of sending your work out and affirming that your work means something to you and you hope it will mean something to others. And, you know, at least one person, even if it's only the person who rejects you, has seen your work and thought about it and weighed it on their own scale. And that in itself is a victory, too. So I feel that there are many things that writers can share with one another, and this blog is an attempt to do that.
[00:25:37] Speaker C: Yeah, no, it sounds fantastic. And how do you feel about self publishing?
[00:25:41] Speaker D: Well, I have self published in my life. At the very beginning of my career, I self published my first book of poems, and I actually typeset it myself back in the days when you actually had to, by hand, type out all the words onto a typesetting machine, and I had to glue the type onto paper. And when the pages were printed, I had to sort them and collate them and bind them. I physically created my first book of poems, and there was something very useful about that. It was a kind of apprenticeship into the world of publishing that gave me a sort of physical connection to publishing that I don't think I would have had. So I'm grateful for that opportunity. I think that a lot of publishing, especially literary publishing, is now in a gray area between self publishing and what was traditional publishing. I think they're the big publishers who have enough money to pay nice advances and royalties and have publicists and so on. But there are very few authors at this point who are publishing with those kinds of publishers. I think more often with smaller literary publishers, there's now an area that's intermediate, where the writer is supposed to do a lot of the publicity, a lot of the editing, even the copy editing. And in many cases, the writer has to purchase copies and be responsible for selling a certain number so that the publisher doesn't lose money on a book. So don't think there's a sharp distinction anymore between self publishing and being published by a recognized named publisher.
[00:27:18] Speaker C: Yeah, it feels like there's a few tiers, but there just feels like there's so many more options these days, I guess. And what you were touching on about rejection, I like it because it felt like it had quite a positive spin on it. But sometimes you can just, myself included, I submit traditionally for my children's fictions works, and sometimes because you spend so long on a work, and then you wait long time for the submissions and years of work and effort and time and things like that, for it then to be kind of rejected, and it sometimes can be hard to take. But I know it's sort of part and parcel if that's the route that you want to take. But for myself, personally, in the meantime, I have to feel like I'm producing something that's physical and coming out in the world. That's why I just love self publishing as well, because some genres. So I've got a couple of nonfiction books which just appeared. I didn't plan on setting out to write them or self publish. They've come from lived experience of trying to have a successful author career. And, yeah, it's just been so great to be able to do both, to do it all, really. We're very lucky at this time in our lives in the publishing industry, that there is so many opportunities and doors open to start your career in different ways, I guess. And like you said, to come at it from self publishing, first off, and you're well rounded in the industry for different ways of doing it. But you do get an appreciation for what the publishing houses do because obviously self publishing, and I've had a conversation the other day about this as well, about publishing to a professional standard. And if you are going to self publish, you have to be just as good as the publishing houses. And that quite well mean educating yourself on every aspect of it, as well as obviously outsourcing and things. It's a massive undertaking. It's not so much the easier way, but it's really gratifying as well in the end, to hold your book in your hand, because if you're just getting constantly rejected, found that people's works as well. I found from submitting over the years that obviously publishing houses are different. They're not going to publish your book one way, and what's for one might not be for the other. And there's all these different things that come into play. But I don't think you should necessarily ever give up trying to go traditional publishing if that's what you want to do, because if you stop, you're never going to succeed and eventually you'll get there. But sometimes a lot of rejection can be hard on people. So to be able to switch it on its head and self publish some works can really keep you in the game, I think, rather than what you were saying about your blog posts, literary dropouts, is that what you called it?
[00:29:50] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:29:51] Speaker C: Right.
[00:29:51] Speaker D: Well, I guess the blog is a kind of self publishing because literally I post everything myself on the web. So that gives me kind of that immediate sense of connection that you're talking about where while I'm waiting for the next book to get accepted or printed, I have some way of reaching readers and getting response.
[00:30:11] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. This podcast for me as well, is a way of being able to produce something and put it out in the world. As a know, I get a lot of gratification for doing so and inspiration as know connecting. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to connect with people we've connected halfway around the world. So, yeah, that's fantastic. But thank you so much for your time and expertise, Zach. It's been amazing talking to you, shared some lovely tips and your work is just great. And everybody who's listening, I'm sure, will be looking up once it's out. Yeah. Can you tell us where can our listeners discover you, your books on offline, your blog everywhere?
[00:30:49] Speaker D: Well, Joanne, I just want to thank you so much for the opportunity to talk with you today. And to talk with your audience and my book. So again, my name is Zach. Z a c k rogo. R o g o w. My website is just onewordzachrogo.com. The book that we've been talking about is a memoir about my dad called Hugging my father's Ghost. And I believe if you google that, you'll get the publisher's website. It's coming out April 2, 2024, and you can order it from the publisher directly. And also my blog advice for writers if you Google Zachrogo blogspot.com, you can find my blog advice for writers. So again, thank you so much for the opportunity to be in conversation with you, Joanne. I enjoyed it.
[00:31:41] Speaker C: A oh, you're welcome. Thanks so much for coming on, Zach.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: So there you have it, folks, the truly whimsical and wonderful words of Zach Rogel. I cannot recommend his new memoir, hugging my Father's Ghost enough. Which is out in April. Next time in the hybrid author podcast, we have author and nonfiction advisor for the alliance of Independent Authors, Ally Anna Featherstone, chatting on built in book marketing. I wish you well in your author adventure this next week. That's it for me. Bye for now.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: That's the end for now, authors. I hope you are further forward in your author adventure after listening, and I hope you'll listen next time. Remember to head on over to the hybrid author website at ww hybridauthor.com au to get your free author pass.
[00:32:28] Speaker A: It's bye for now.
